4 ms·

Think you'd go with NEMA 240V sockets, or prefer a different standard of outlet?

by jimbobthrowawy 2y ago

jen20 2y ago
The Type G connector serves perfectly well, and is vastly safer than the standard US outlets!
- ars 2y ago
  The Type G is way too big! They only reason it's that big is leftover baggage from ring circuits requiring fuses in the plugs. And while it might be safer on paper, in practice there is little difference in injury rates US vs UK.
  - jimbobthrowawy 2y ago
    I appreciate the plugs having replaceable fuses in them. Makes it harder for people to overload extension leads and the like. Totally disagree on that injury rate though, and you would too if you ever stepped on a type G plug.
ars 2y ago
The NEMA 6-20 is what I'd want. I actually think the US should start requiring those. Start with having 1 or 2 in the kitchen, and additionally 1 within 100 feet of any spot in the house. Once they are more common we'll start to see appliances start using them. At first mainly for cooking and vacuum cleaners.
- ssl-3 2y ago
  I'm in favor of having common ~240v sockets in the US, for all of the perhaps-obvious reasons including boiling water more-quickly for coffee or tea and running a portable induction hob that doesn't suck. But if the NEMA 5-15 is a not-great standard, then the NEMA 6-20 is also equally-flawed. They've both got the same set of issues. The only good reason for 6-20 (or 6-15) in American kitchens is that it is an "approved" connector. It fits in, today, with what we have here in the States in terms of broadly-accepted wiring methods, safety testing, and formal training. That is indeed a good reason, and I do not wish to diminish that reason. If 6-20 were already commonly-used in residential environments -- anywhere -- then it'd be easy to say that it would be a nice thing to have in every kitchen. But it has neither momentum nor inertia, because it mostly just doesn't exist. So if we're going to set out sights on what is ostensibly going to be considered a "new" plug, then: Why not aim for one that doesn't inherently suck?
  - ars 2y ago
    Lots of A/Cs and high power equipment uses NEMA 6, there's wide availability of parts for it. For example I have several in my house. EV's have connectors for it as well. The thing is people keep complaining about how bad NEMA 5 and 6 are - and yet, somehow, the US doesn't have a lot of electrical injuries. So it seems the theory doesn't match the reality. It's just not that big of a problem. NEMA 5/6 sockets have a lot going for them: They are physically relatively small, the flat blade has a much better contact surface relative to round plugs, they are also much cheaper to make (both the plug and the socket). I could certainly design something better - I would put all 3 prongs in a line (with un-even spacing to ensure polarity) to make the plug even smaller, and put an insulating sheath on the top of the prong designed exactly right so that when it makes electrical contact the metal part of the prong is no longer exposed. Even better: You could make an outlet that is simultaneously 120V with backward compatibility and 240V! (And I just realized that polarity is pointless - 240V have a hot on both sides.) I'm starting to warm to your idea of a new outlet. Have three slots in a row. > Why not aim for one that doesn't inherently suck? Out of curiosity, other than the things I designed against, what other issues do you have with it?
    - ssl-3 2y ago
      As a counter-anecdote, I've never had a 6-15 or 6-20 in any home I've ever lived in. I'm aware of its existence and utility, and I even have a duplex Leviton 6-20R in my Amazon shopping cart that I will purchase and install in my kitchen if life ever allows me to be to be a homeowner again, but I just have never encountered them much in the wild. (Except once, over 20 years ago: The wall-mounted AC in a hotel room I stayed at in Florida used NEMA 6. [EV owners love this one simple trick!]) I have issues with typical US socket arrangements. They begin to disconnect too easily when things move around, as small appliances in a kitchen tend to do. They still work when partially-disconnected, but they have exposed live elements in this state. This has probably happened to me hundreds of times so far. And while it hasn't harmed me yet, and I'm not particularly afraid of 125VAC, I'm always aware of that potential harm when I encounter the condition. I have also found (and corrected) the mythological problem where a metal thing has slid down a wall and onto a partially-inserted plug. --- You know, as I wrote what I wrote before and I write this now, I've reviewed many of the world's plugs. Some seem kind of OK, some are huge for no apparent reason (adding both cost and bulk for little benefit), and some seem like a series of trade-offs that are based in legacy. And the US certainly has its own legacies, too: Like you alluded to, multi-speed 4-wire outlets, offering hot, hot, neutral, and ground. In a fairy tale world where these can be compatible with bog-standard NEMA 5-15P appliances, that becomes a very, very easy thing to sell. It becomes so easy to sell that the ease of use starts to become more important than some of the other functions I've considered. They can even configured so that each of the 120V portions operates on a separate leg. (This ruins global compatibility, and will ultimately require revision of the NEC since split-phase duplex outlets are presently only allowed in kitchens, but boy would that be easy to sell. It also requires 4 wires instead of 3.) Is there enough room to add a contact (or two) inside of a 5-15R, using modern manufacturing methods? Maybe a square hole near the middle somewhere with positive engagement?

Think you'd go with NEMA 240V sockets, or prefer a different standard of outlet?

jen20 2y ago

The Type G connector serves perfectly well, and is vastly safer than the standard US outlets!

ars 2y ago
The Type G is way too big! They only reason it's that big is leftover baggage from ring circuits requiring fuses in the plugs. And while it might be safer on paper, in practice there is little difference in injury rates US vs UK.
- jimbobthrowawy 2y ago
  I appreciate the plugs having replaceable fuses in them. Makes it harder for people to overload extension leads and the like. Totally disagree on that injury rate though, and you would too if you ever stepped on a type G plug.

ars 2y ago

The NEMA 6-20 is what I'd want. I actually think the US should start requiring those. Start with having 1 or 2 in the kitchen, and additionally 1 within 100 feet of any spot in the house. Once they are more common we'll start to see appliances start using them. At first mainly for cooking and vacuum cleaners.

ssl-3 2y ago
I'm in favor of having common ~240v sockets in the US, for all of the perhaps-obvious reasons including boiling water more-quickly for coffee or tea and running a portable induction hob that doesn't suck. But if the NEMA 5-15 is a not-great standard, then the NEMA 6-20 is also equally-flawed. They've both got the same set of issues. The only good reason for 6-20 (or 6-15) in American kitchens is that it is an "approved" connector. It fits in, today, with what we have here in the States in terms of broadly-accepted wiring methods, safety testing, and formal training. That is indeed a good reason, and I do not wish to diminish that reason. If 6-20 were already commonly-used in residential environments -- anywhere -- then it'd be easy to say that it would be a nice thing to have in every kitchen. But it has neither momentum nor inertia, because it mostly just doesn't exist. So if we're going to set out sights on what is ostensibly going to be considered a "new" plug, then: Why not aim for one that doesn't inherently suck?
- ars 2y ago
  Lots of A/Cs and high power equipment uses NEMA 6, there's wide availability of parts for it. For example I have several in my house. EV's have connectors for it as well. The thing is people keep complaining about how bad NEMA 5 and 6 are - and yet, somehow, the US doesn't have a lot of electrical injuries. So it seems the theory doesn't match the reality. It's just not that big of a problem. NEMA 5/6 sockets have a lot going for them: They are physically relatively small, the flat blade has a much better contact surface relative to round plugs, they are also much cheaper to make (both the plug and the socket). I could certainly design something better - I would put all 3 prongs in a line (with un-even spacing to ensure polarity) to make the plug even smaller, and put an insulating sheath on the top of the prong designed exactly right so that when it makes electrical contact the metal part of the prong is no longer exposed. Even better: You could make an outlet that is simultaneously 120V with backward compatibility and 240V! (And I just realized that polarity is pointless - 240V have a hot on both sides.) I'm starting to warm to your idea of a new outlet. Have three slots in a row. > Why not aim for one that doesn't inherently suck? Out of curiosity, other than the things I designed against, what other issues do you have with it?
  - ssl-3 2y ago
    As a counter-anecdote, I've never had a 6-15 or 6-20 in any home I've ever lived in. I'm aware of its existence and utility, and I even have a duplex Leviton 6-20R in my Amazon shopping cart that I will purchase and install in my kitchen if life ever allows me to be to be a homeowner again, but I just have never encountered them much in the wild. (Except once, over 20 years ago: The wall-mounted AC in a hotel room I stayed at in Florida used NEMA 6. [EV owners love this one simple trick!]) I have issues with typical US socket arrangements. They begin to disconnect too easily when things move around, as small appliances in a kitchen tend to do. They still work when partially-disconnected, but they have exposed live elements in this state. This has probably happened to me hundreds of times so far. And while it hasn't harmed me yet, and I'm not particularly afraid of 125VAC, I'm always aware of that potential harm when I encounter the condition. I have also found (and corrected) the mythological problem where a metal thing has slid down a wall and onto a partially-inserted plug. --- You know, as I wrote what I wrote before and I write this now, I've reviewed many of the world's plugs. Some seem kind of OK, some are huge for no apparent reason (adding both cost and bulk for little benefit), and some seem like a series of trade-offs that are based in legacy. And the US certainly has its own legacies, too: Like you alluded to, multi-speed 4-wire outlets, offering hot, hot, neutral, and ground. In a fairy tale world where these can be compatible with bog-standard NEMA 5-15P appliances, that becomes a very, very easy thing to sell. It becomes so easy to sell that the ease of use starts to become more important than some of the other functions I've considered. They can even configured so that each of the 120V portions operates on a separate leg. (This ruins global compatibility, and will ultimately require revision of the NEC since split-phase duplex outlets are presently only allowed in kitchens, but boy would that be easy to sell. It also requires 4 wires instead of 3.) Is there enough room to add a contact (or two) inside of a 5-15R, using modern manufacturing methods? Maybe a square hole near the middle somewhere with positive engagement?