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Is that true in any country or just US? I have the impression that in China is not so difficult to build nuclear power plants.

Jedd 2y ago
The sets { USA } and ¬ { China } aren't equivalent, of course. I think the extra challenges 'in the west' (UK has a spectacularly famous on-going example, but Europe's experience is closer to the USA's than China's) are a function of safety regulations, and you're obviously not going to suffer the same challenge(s) in a locale that lacks those. Where you believe your nation's regulations around build & operations sits along the spectrum from sensible to pesky will presumably correlate with how strongly you believe that fission power plants are the (misunderstood / underappreciated) answer. (I'm in AU and a few minutes after wrapping a decade of federal administration where they never thought or mentioned the idea - the now opposition (conservative) political party started suggesting fission nuclear power was A Great Idea. We're in a unique position here in AU, but this was clearly a political, not a pragmatic, advocacy.)
pjc50 2y ago
In China, if you're the medium rank politician charged with ensuring that a nuclear reactor gets built in province X, and ten years later there is not an operating nuclear reactor in province X, then the Party tends to get mad. And if they find out you've stolen the money then the consequences can be fatal. If there's any one thing that's causing a ""decline"" in the west, it's a tolerance for fraud and failure of big projects. Edit: found a really interesting backgrounder on details of the Chinese nuclear programme. https://world-nuclear.org/Information-Library/Country-Profiles/countries-A-F/China-Nuclear-Power https://world-nuclear.org/Information-Library/Country-Profil...
- spookie 2y ago
  There are plenty of issues with that approach, mind you.
  - willcipriano 2y ago
    Somehow our leadership convinced us that them facing consequences is a bad idea while they erected a police state that would throw us in a cage if we so much as had a plant they don't like in our pocket. Leaders need to face the greatest consequences. That's the price of leadership. We have things backward.
- Krasnol 2y ago
  > If there's any one thing that's causing a ""decline"" in the west, it's a tolerance for fraud and failure of big projects. You should google "Tofu-Dreg". Videos are especially entertaining. That money get's stolen. You just build it cheaper, get smeared by contractors, employ slaves, etc. Also, that "tolerance" of the West is surely worth a discussion, but comparing it to the ways a dictatorship enforces their laws and regulations makes it kinda, disturbing.
  - fallingknife 2y ago
    In China there is tolerance for stealing as long as the job gets done. In the USA there is tolerance for the job not getting done, but not for stealing. I used to think our system was better, but it seems like China gets more done when they accept that there will be some losses to stealing.
    - Krasnol 2y ago
      How does it help you if the job is "done" but causes a serious risk to lives? As I said: the stealing still happens. It's institutionalized in China. Your system IS better...or at least, for now. China is a dictatorship. Their way of handling "their" people is mad and dangerous. Even if you get things "done", you better be happy that you've been lucky to live in the US and not be afraid that your house may fall apart, or you disappear in some hole in the road.
      - fallingknife 2y ago
        Is poor construction that needs to be replaced soon worse than no construction at all? I guess that's debatable, but I would have to see actual statistics on Chinese construction failure rates vs the US rather than just a general assumption that China = low quality before it is even worth considering.
        Krasnol 2y ago
        > Is poor construction that needs to be replaced soon worse than no construction at all? I guess that's debatable Replaced? I'm talking about parts of the infrastructure or housing literally falling apart and killing people. You should really follow my advice from above and google "tofu-dreg" > but I would have to see actual statistics on Chinese construction failure rates Just watch some of those videos where huge parts of infrastructure just collapse. Those things would have been major news for days in the whole western civilization if it'd happen in the US. Also, how would you verify (any) statistics coming from China? A country where the whole market is based upon falsified statistics? I mean, that's nothing the regime is proud of. Why would they create true statistics about such failures?
throw0101d 2y ago
> I have the impression that in China is not so difficult to build nuclear power plants. Up until the mid-00s Japan was building quite a few plants as well, and they took about 4-5 years from breaking ground to commercial operation: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_nuclear_reactors#Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_nuclear_rea... Turns out that nuclear plants are like any manufactured widget: building at scale gets costs and time down once you have the workflow down and supply chain stood up. The "trick" is settling on one standard design and just turning the crank.
whizzter 2y ago
It wasn't too difficult to build RBMK-1000's in the Soviet either, it was far more difficult to clean up the results though. I think it'd be immensely interesting to hear of the differences in the EPR reactors built in China (built in 8-9 years) vs the European plants (taking 18years for the finished site in Finland, the French one not finished yet?). On paper the same basic design but twice the build time. Olk-3 in Finland was first to break ground so were they hampered by being first to be built and fixing build issues as they went along or were issues from Finland just not deemed a problem in China?

Jedd 2y ago

The sets { USA } and ¬ { China } aren't equivalent, of course. I think the extra challenges 'in the west' (UK has a spectacularly famous on-going example, but Europe's experience is closer to the USA's than China's) are a function of safety regulations, and you're obviously not going to suffer the same challenge(s) in a locale that lacks those. Where you believe your nation's regulations around build & operations sits along the spectrum from sensible to pesky will presumably correlate with how strongly you believe that fission power plants are the (misunderstood / underappreciated) answer. (I'm in AU and a few minutes after wrapping a decade of federal administration where they never thought or mentioned the idea - the now opposition (conservative) political party started suggesting fission nuclear power was A Great Idea. We're in a unique position here in AU, but this was clearly a political, not a pragmatic, advocacy.)

pjc50 2y ago

In China, if you're the medium rank politician charged with ensuring that a nuclear reactor gets built in province X, and ten years later there is not an operating nuclear reactor in province X, then the Party tends to get mad. And if they find out you've stolen the money then the consequences can be fatal. If there's any one thing that's causing a ""decline"" in the west, it's a tolerance for fraud and failure of big projects. Edit: found a really interesting backgrounder on details of the Chinese nuclear programme. https://world-nuclear.org/Information-Library/Country-Profiles/countries-A-F/China-Nuclear-Power https://world-nuclear.org/Information-Library/Country-Profil...

spookie 2y ago
There are plenty of issues with that approach, mind you.
- willcipriano 2y ago
  Somehow our leadership convinced us that them facing consequences is a bad idea while they erected a police state that would throw us in a cage if we so much as had a plant they don't like in our pocket. Leaders need to face the greatest consequences. That's the price of leadership. We have things backward.
Krasnol 2y ago
> If there's any one thing that's causing a ""decline"" in the west, it's a tolerance for fraud and failure of big projects. You should google "Tofu-Dreg". Videos are especially entertaining. That money get's stolen. You just build it cheaper, get smeared by contractors, employ slaves, etc. Also, that "tolerance" of the West is surely worth a discussion, but comparing it to the ways a dictatorship enforces their laws and regulations makes it kinda, disturbing.
- fallingknife 2y ago
  In China there is tolerance for stealing as long as the job gets done. In the USA there is tolerance for the job not getting done, but not for stealing. I used to think our system was better, but it seems like China gets more done when they accept that there will be some losses to stealing.
  - Krasnol 2y ago
    How does it help you if the job is "done" but causes a serious risk to lives? As I said: the stealing still happens. It's institutionalized in China. Your system IS better...or at least, for now. China is a dictatorship. Their way of handling "their" people is mad and dangerous. Even if you get things "done", you better be happy that you've been lucky to live in the US and not be afraid that your house may fall apart, or you disappear in some hole in the road.
    - fallingknife 2y ago
      Is poor construction that needs to be replaced soon worse than no construction at all? I guess that's debatable, but I would have to see actual statistics on Chinese construction failure rates vs the US rather than just a general assumption that China = low quality before it is even worth considering.
      - Krasnol 2y ago
        > Is poor construction that needs to be replaced soon worse than no construction at all? I guess that's debatable Replaced? I'm talking about parts of the infrastructure or housing literally falling apart and killing people. You should really follow my advice from above and google "tofu-dreg" > but I would have to see actual statistics on Chinese construction failure rates Just watch some of those videos where huge parts of infrastructure just collapse. Those things would have been major news for days in the whole western civilization if it'd happen in the US. Also, how would you verify (any) statistics coming from China? A country where the whole market is based upon falsified statistics? I mean, that's nothing the regime is proud of. Why would they create true statistics about such failures?

throw0101d 2y ago

> I have the impression that in China is not so difficult to build nuclear power plants. Up until the mid-00s Japan was building quite a few plants as well, and they took about 4-5 years from breaking ground to commercial operation: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_nuclear_reactors#Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_nuclear_rea... Turns out that nuclear plants are like any manufactured widget: building at scale gets costs and time down once you have the workflow down and supply chain stood up. The "trick" is settling on one standard design and just turning the crank.

whizzter 2y ago

It wasn't too difficult to build RBMK-1000's in the Soviet either, it was far more difficult to clean up the results though. I think it'd be immensely interesting to hear of the differences in the EPR reactors built in China (built in 8-9 years) vs the European plants (taking 18years for the finished site in Finland, the French one not finished yet?). On paper the same basic design but twice the build time. Olk-3 in Finland was first to break ground so were they hampered by being first to be built and fixing build issues as they went along or were issues from Finland just not deemed a problem in China?