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Operation CHARM: Car repair manuals for everyone
- felixg3 2y agoInteresting project. Just curious: why does it stop at 2013? Are the manuals not available, is it a licensing issue or just a project frozen in 2013?
- millzlane 2y agoI know the mitchell and alldata discs on the high seas stops around then also.
- GeneralAntilles 2y agomanufacturers have all switched to online-only, subscription shop manuals that don't lend themselves to easy archiving to PDF.
- whartung 2y agoGoing to be interesting if we ever get “right to repair” for vehicles for the factories to open that all up again. I have some CD filled with I guess downloads from a factory online manual. It’s not the best experience to be sure.
- autotech 2y agoWe have that right now, you just have to pay for it. https://www.oemonestop.com/ https://www.oemonestop.com/
- millzlane 2y agoMost Manufacturers have a website that you can access and pay for a day or more access. Usually it's the exact same one they use at the dealerships. I was able to print the manuals to pdfs. VW: https://erwin.vw.com/ https://erwin.vw.com/ Toyota: https://techinfo.toyota.com https://techinfo.toyota.com
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y agoWhat about shops that are outside internet access?
- Imagenuity 2y agoAll of Tesla's Service Manuals are freely available online: https://service.tesla.com/docs/ModelY/ServiceManual/index-model-y.html https://service.tesla.com/docs/ModelY/ServiceManual/index-mo...
- fxtentacle 2y ago"Almost all makes and models from 1982 through 2013" which sadly means that no current car models are included.
- dclowd9901 2y agoArguably, many of the things you’ll need to work on for newer vehicles are likely far outside the casual mechanic’s expertise and require a lot of bespoke and expensive equipment to service. Everything else, like oil, brakes or fluid changes are basically the same as any other car. I understand that this kind of runs afoul of the spirit of this post, but there’s a reason many engines are simply replaced when they encounter some kind of major malfunction.
- armildarken 2y agoThis isn't true for many makes and models. It's different than older models because troubleshooting or servicing starts with interrogating or commanding the car with specific software that isn't basic OBDII but with OBD adapters and cheap software both my 2010's Volkswagen and Jeeps can be diagnosed and serviced with an OBD reader. Ironically my old Toyota is one of the hardest to really get at sensor and dealer-software changes. In personal experience, VW manuals are atrocious to figure out while Toyota, at least around 2000 put out wonderful service manuals even if the ECU's are locked down.
- solidsnack9000 2y agoIronically my old Toyota is one of the hardest to really get at sensor and dealer-software changes. In personal experience, VW manuals are atrocious to figure out while Toyota, at least around 2000 put out wonderful service manuals even if the ECU's are locked down. It seems like one effect of this is that the temperature display can not be localized. Most everything else on a US market Toyota can be converted to metric but it looks like the AC and internal dash display for temperature can't be changed by the dealer, by knowledgeable users or by repair shops.
- pard68 2y ago
- hhshhhhjjjd 2y agoMay I ask for the Toyota Scion XB manual from 2005/2006? Scion always seems to be left out of make/model lists :(
- relaxing 2y agoThey can be found on the scionlife forums, or at least used to be. I bet if you ask around you’ll find them. (Aside, it’s interesting that car people seem to be one of the groups that still use old fashioned BBS-style web forums.)
- hhshhhhjjjd 2y agoI'll check it out, thanks!
- tjohns 2y agoIf your public library offers access to a repair manual database (many do), you can probably find it on there for free. I just checked and both Auto Repair Source and Chilton have manuals for that car in their database.
- williape 2y agoJust compared to a manual I purchased for $40 from Haynes - CHARM is just as good if not slightly better than that commercial repair guide for a 2008 VW GTI.
- userbinator 2y agoFor something a little older (and a bit less organised), see https://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/ https://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/ That said, a lot of newer official service manuals don't really go into detail and just give instructions on how to disassemble and swap parts; better than no manual, but a huge contrast from older ones that would also include detailed theory of operation and troubleshooting information.
- millzlane 2y agoThis is how I learned to troubleshoot certain issues. The Chilton manual had a pretty good diagnosis section.
- elchief 2y agoooh, labor times too, to see if you're getting screwed by your mechanic... and use rockauto.com for cheap parts (not affiliated)
- kwkelly 2y agoYou mean rockauto.com and I agree it’s a great source for parts
- elchief 2y agofixed, thx
- mtreis86 2y agoLabor times are for new cars at flat rate dealerships, a lot of them are not realistic. Dealers make a pile of money off brake jobs, shocks, and other "gravy" repairs where it takes less time than the book says. They also lose time on the hard stuff that nobody in the place does on a routine basis like wire harness repairs. The timing also expects the mechanic to have the right tools all at hand, the right parts all ready to go, and the car is expected to be new, clean, and rust free. Your mileage may vary.
- dclowd9901 2y agoVery cool. I love old original FSMs (factory service manuals) and tend to buy them for a car I’m beginning to restore. I’ll reach out to these folks to see if they’d be interested in scans of them or whatever they use to build this site.
- sq_ 2y agoI’ve always been curious about how many different manuals there seem to be for every car. I know that the manufacturers create one for dealers and that there are/were companies that tear cars down to make their own, but it feels like when I’ve needed to go find instructions for things there’s a staggering variety of manuals of varying levels of helpfulness. Even when I manage to find what I think is an FSM it seems a little hard to follow what’s really going on in a given section without reading the section for every other assembly involved.
- dclowd9901 2y agoYou’re totally right about this. I’d say there’s a very wide range of quality between various manufacturers’ FSMs. Toyota ones are great with diagnostic instructions and explicit parameters to match, whereas other brands I’ve leafed through have completely muddy pictures and poor instructions or no figures. For third parties, I find Bentley manuals to be extremely good and thorough.
- sq_ 2y agoThe car that I'm most interested in fixing something on at the moment is a Toyota, so that's great to hear about their manuals. If one finds a manual from the manufacturer itself is it safe to say that that's the true FSM versus something else they may have produced? Thanks for the tip on the Bentley manuals, too!
- tom_ 2y agoSeems to be US specific. Can't see manuals for the last 3 cars I've had: 2001 BMW 330d, 2010 BMW 330i, 2011 Ford C-Max petrol. Renault stops in 1987, Peugeot stops in 1993, and there's nothing for Citroen, Vauxhall or Rover/MG at all. (Realoem is pretty comprehensive for BMW parts numbers, if you need them)
- TehCorwiz 2y agoYeah, it's also missing a lot of the information for the 2004 325xit sports wagon. No info on the rear hatch wipers, glass, etc.
- publicmail 2y agoWe’re so lucky to have realoem. I was kind of shocked to find no equivalent for my late model GM vehicle.
- fanf2 2y agoOr the classic Haynes manuals https://haynes.com/ https://haynes.com/
- calvinmorrison 2y agoHaynes has a classic print error on the distributor leads for my car. Its like 4 1 3 2 instead of 2 3 1 4 (its right they just got the orientation backwards) which leads to many a forum thread.
- KennyBlanken 2y agoHaynes manuals are infamous for being trash.
- calvinmorrison 2y agoThe answer to car manuals is like reading history. Make sure you get two different source materials. Haynes did their own tear downs and write ups. Pair that with the OEM manuals, and service bulletins, forums and you get a good picture. The reference book for saab 900 is the Bentley Bible. Its a fantastic resource but the Haynes has a transmisson teardown and rebuild and better info on older trims. Pair that with the service manuals from Saab and the forums and you're rocking
- Gracana 2y agoIIRC the Suzuki Sidekick manual has a bunch of inaccurate torque specifications, on the very high side. I was lucky to learn about that before I did any work.
- userbinator 2y agoPossibly a metric-imperial units mixup? Values originally in Nm mistaken as ft-lbs would mean they're around 1.356x what they should be --- which is dangerous because they're not absurdly out of range.
- Amorymeltzer 2y agoThe piece I like about this is less the manual about how to do the things—although that's always helpful—but the information about parts and labor. I assume the cost of things is out of date, but it's nice to have some baseline for labor time. Most folks (with ICE vehicles anyway) aren't doing most maintenance or repairs, so reducing the information asymmetry with various repair shops is a welcome tool.
- hnburnsy 2y agoHow about Car How-tos and Repair Manuals for the Multitudes, CHARMM?
- autotech 2y agoI often use this site for service info. It’s all pirated from ALLDATA. Currently a comprehensive subscription to service info is around $180/mo. A modern repair shop can’t function without service information.
- wilg 2y agoOne thing that's fun about Tesla is their full service manuals for (all?) their vehicles are free online https://service.tesla.com/ https://service.tesla.com/
- nimbius 2y agoAs a professional diesel mechanic by trade, i can say this is a similar practice shops pay through-the-nose for with paid online catalogue services. this makes shadetree work on Teslas a treat. I spent a summer during covid doing work on Model S suspensions in a spare bay. Im also chuffed to see the "pictures" in the service catalogue are just as pathetic as the ones some manufacturers include in the paid service portals. Freightliner and Mac manuals are all pristine...theres clearly an artist on salary who gets paid very very well for his craft. Companies that rhyme with Bilbo however include photos that look like they were taken with a gameboy color camera on a stormy night.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago> Companies that rhyme with Bilbo I’m coming up with nothing except Volvo, so I’m assuming that’s a typo.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 2y agoIt fits, sounds like OP works on semis, and Volvo is a big player in that market.
- KennyBlanken 2y ago...because they gatekeep everyone via parts, instead. Tesla is one of very, very few companies for which its parts aren't available via the OEMs; parts made for Teslas can only be had via Tesla. If some part in your VW goes bad or breaks or wears, you often have up to three options: from VW via dealers, via the OEM that made the part for VW, via parts distributors - or via non-OEMs that have made a compatible part. VW (and others) often source from multiple OEMs or switch OEMs, so you sometimes have multiple OEM supplier options. With Tesla? Only via them. For every fucking part on the car save stuff like brake pads and rotors. You have to give them a VIN number to buy a part, and if the VIN belongs to a car Tesla has decided isn't roadworthy anymore, they won't go any further. Want to put a small block chevy V8 into your Yugo? The guy at the GM dealer part counter will happily sell you one as long as you've got the money. Discovered that a Ford temperature sensor is a more reliable replacement for the one in your Jeep? The parts counter staff won't even blink when they sell you one. The only time you'll get asked for a VIN is if the part you're asking for has varied with production, and certain VIN ranges might require a specific part for compatibility.
- stn8188 2y agoThank you so much for this! I'm constantly needing to Google for torque specs when I work on my van, and as great as the Odyssey forum is it's really nice to have this. I really appreciate it, personally. I do all my own work, and it would be nice if manufacturers made this information more easy to access for those of us who do.
- calvinmorrison 2y agoTorque specs you generally do get a feel for. It's basically related to bolt size. I mean, generally. Use torque specs inside the engine. Outside the engine go by feel
- lelanthran 2y ago> It's basically related to bolt size. Well, there's confounding factors: the type of bolt (such as stretch bolts), the material the bolt is going into (heads are aluminium, while some sleeves in aluminium parts are not), whether the bolt is lubricated before insertion (spark plugs really should be lubricated), etc. Bolt size is just another variable.
- tjohns 2y agoMany public libraries also offer access to a car repair manual database through their online collection. You need a library card, but the information is high quality.
- userbinator 2y agoThey have/had huge collections of physical manuals too. That brings back memories around the turn of the century when I was in the "bookz" scene, going to the libraries with others and maxing out our library cards to bring home dozens of them for "scanparties". There were huge torrents of car manuals created as a result, and I suspect at least some of our efforts have been preserved in the "pirate libraries" today.
- 1970-01-01 2y ago>Our data will be available free of charge, permanently. Permanently free and available just means until the website fails to pay the hosting bills or gets taken down by lawyers. Akin to a lifetime warranty. The company will surely fail before you do.
- KennyBlanken 2y agoI looked up a particular car model I know and they've just made (really terrible) copies of the manuals published by Robert Bentley. The font and diagrams are exactly as I remember. This is basically wholesale copyright infringement. For another vehicle I know well, there's basically no actual repair information - just diagrams telling you where to find a particular component in the car. Nothing about how to actually do diagnostics or repairs.
- wkat4242 2y agoThis seems to have only American models? My last car is not listed but versions with huge engine sizes which were never sold here in Europe are.
- penguin_booze 2y agoYeah, was about to comment that. I looked for Suzuki Swift, but nada.
- zokier 2y agoI've occasionally wondered if there are any production cars that have original manufacturing/design documents released. Feels like those could be really cool to see for some classic cars (911 comes to mind...)
- userbinator 2y agoReleased as in publicly available, yes. Not free though: https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-resources/popular-topics/ford-parts-drawings https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digita...
- zokier 2y ago> We have the parts drawings in our collection, and we can supply copies, but we cannot confer the right to manufacture reproduction parts for sale – you would need to contact the Ford Motor Company for that Curious what legal mechanism they are trying to use here, and on how solid legal ground they are... somehow I imagine it could make interesting legal case if they sued someone making new parts.
- userbinator 2y ago(IANAL) Patents have long expired. Copyright may or may not apply. Trademark is probably the only thing that they have a solid legal standing on. Judging by the wide availability of aftermarket parts, even for vehicles much newer, I suspect that quote is more of a disclaimer than anything else.
- stevematzal 2y agoNo repair manual for Dacia? That's a shame.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jmrm 2y agoIt's curious how this kind of documents and book are easy to find for free for cars sold in North American but not from other places. That's a big marker about how big is the car culture there.