6 ms·

> Consciousness requires a soul Any actual evidence for this is welcome.

hypertele-Xii 2y ago
I'm glad to discuss it, but that's all the evidence you're ever going to get, if you personally have not experienced... it. Through meditation, psychedelia, or religious practice. First-hand witness accounts and historical records are your evidence. How long you ignore it all is up to you. Once upon a time I was locked in a mind prison of material logic. I considered myself transhuman, dreamed of cybernetics and the singularity. Thought that all religious peoples are idiots stuck in ancient fairy tales. Then I experienced a sequence of odd coincidences and inexplicable situations where spiritual entities guided me, causing a complete deconstruction of my entire worldview. Now it's obvious to me the truth I had been so vehemently running away from my whole life, and the propaganda, indoctrination, and brainwashing are laid bare before me to see. The modern "we don't need no God" ideology is literally terminally ill. Everyone who blindly follows science and government are being consumed by them. Fertility is falling off a cliff. They're all mentally ill and medicated. Mandatory medical genetic experiments and engineered bioweapon plagues are murdering its followers and the fact that this ongoing debacle is being actively suppressed in media and politics tells me clear as day, the devil himself has taken root and hold of this world. Meanwhile, in the churches I frequent, I see happy families practically building paradise on Earth, the kind I got to see as a child, and I know most people are headed to the same hell I climbed out of, like zombies. No amount of talking with these self-destructive delusionists will convince them to even try praying once in their lives, even as a joke. I have all the evidence I need; My life has made a miraculous turnaround from spiritual guidance. If you'd like, I can ask the spirits to guide you through me. The main thing to know about the spirit world is this: Good spirits require your explicit permission to come aboard and help you. The bad ones invite themselves in and destroy you from within. That's why humans are fundamentally religious creatures, and you ignore the spirit world at your own peril. It's like the microbiome in your body. You gotta let good/neutral bacteria make a home of you, lest the bad ones take residence and literally kill you from within. And it's not "you fall dead the moment you stop believing", it's "these hostile bacteria literally control your mind to cause unhealthy behavior for their benefit", like overeating sugar (obesity very prevalent), being selfish, greedy, etc. A prayer a day keeps the evil spirits away. This is not a matter of faith for me, it's the truth I've experienced for myself, and the evidence for which I see written in our very civilizational DNA. You just choose to ignore the evidence because you think yourself bigger than God. It's an indefensible position the ramifications of which you'll regret when it's too late, or when you hit your personal rock bottom, as I did.
- lupire 2y ago
  This debate is boring semantics. "Consciousness requires a soul" is only useful if you understand what a soul is. Someone who solves that problem but just calls is "consciousness" not "soul" hasn't missed anything.
  - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
    > "Consciousness requires a soul" is only useful if you understand what a soul is. False. It can help you understand what it is. "Apples are red" is only useful if you already know the color red? But if you know apples then you've just learned something about colors!
    - mannykannot 2y ago
      That's all very well (up to the point where I have a green apple in front of me!), but if someone tells me something to the effect that consciousness is identical with soul, all I have learned is something about their personal take on lexicography. If they go on to say, for example, that the soul is immortal, I have not learned that consciousness is immortal; I have learned something about the speaker's beliefs.
      - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
        No, you have learned that consciousness has something to do with immortality. Examine that for a minute, you'll see it's obviously true. Our genes are an organic mechanism seeking immortality of consciousness through instincts, some of which can be awe-inspiringly complex, like spider webs. We praise language and culture for its ability to retain information across time (approaching immortality). That you're dismissing this as some kind of lexicographical or subjective belief thing reveals how intensely your mind seeks to dismiss it. The truth is purifying fire that burns away parasitical spirits doing their damnest to convince you otherwise.
- nulld3v 2y ago
  I don't think we are ignoring any evidence here, there is just no evidence (or at least I haven't seen any). It seems these spirits are allergic to video or something, I have seen more video evidence of UFOs than spirits. Of course, personal experience is also valid evidence, and I have seen none of that either.
strogonoff 2y ago
I do not think consciousness requires a soul or any other magic (not a dualist myself), but you have to acknowledge that there is 1) evidence of consciousness, 2) no evidence of where it comes from, and 3) no way to prove or falsify a statement that it magically arises from entities described by modern models in natural sciences.

I'm glad to discuss it, but that's all the evidence you're ever going to get, if you personally have not experienced... it. Through meditation, psychedelia, or religious practice. First-hand witness accounts and historical records are your evidence. How long you ignore it all is up to you. Once upon a time I was locked in a mind prison of material logic. I considered myself transhuman, dreamed of cybernetics and the singularity. Thought that all religious peoples are idiots stuck in ancient fairy tales. Then I experienced a sequence of odd coincidences and inexplicable situations where spiritual entities guided me, causing a complete deconstruction of my entire worldview. Now it's obvious to me the truth I had been so vehemently running away from my whole life, and the propaganda, indoctrination, and brainwashing are laid bare before me to see. The modern "we don't need no God" ideology is literally terminally ill. Everyone who blindly follows science and government are being consumed by them. Fertility is falling off a cliff. They're all mentally ill and medicated. Mandatory medical genetic experiments and engineered bioweapon plagues are murdering its followers and the fact that this ongoing debacle is being actively suppressed in media and politics tells me clear as day, the devil himself has taken root and hold of this world. Meanwhile, in the churches I frequent, I see happy families practically building paradise on Earth, the kind I got to see as a child, and I know most people are headed to the same hell I climbed out of, like zombies. No amount of talking with these self-destructive delusionists will convince them to even try praying once in their lives, even as a joke. I have all the evidence I need; My life has made a miraculous turnaround from spiritual guidance. If you'd like, I can ask the spirits to guide you through me. The main thing to know about the spirit world is this: Good spirits require your explicit permission to come aboard and help you. The bad ones invite themselves in and destroy you from within. That's why humans are fundamentally religious creatures, and you ignore the spirit world at your own peril. It's like the microbiome in your body. You gotta let good/neutral bacteria make a home of you, lest the bad ones take residence and literally kill you from within. And it's not "you fall dead the moment you stop believing", it's "these hostile bacteria literally control your mind to cause unhealthy behavior for their benefit", like overeating sugar (obesity very prevalent), being selfish, greedy, etc. A prayer a day keeps the evil spirits away. This is not a matter of faith for me, it's the truth I've experienced for myself, and the evidence for which I see written in our very civilizational DNA. You just choose to ignore the evidence because you think yourself bigger than God. It's an indefensible position the ramifications of which you'll regret when it's too late, or when you hit your personal rock bottom, as I did.

lupire 2y ago
This debate is boring semantics. "Consciousness requires a soul" is only useful if you understand what a soul is. Someone who solves that problem but just calls is "consciousness" not "soul" hasn't missed anything.
- hypertele-Xii 2y ago
  > "Consciousness requires a soul" is only useful if you understand what a soul is. False. It can help you understand what it is. "Apples are red" is only useful if you already know the color red? But if you know apples then you've just learned something about colors!
  - mannykannot 2y ago
    That's all very well (up to the point where I have a green apple in front of me!), but if someone tells me something to the effect that consciousness is identical with soul, all I have learned is something about their personal take on lexicography. If they go on to say, for example, that the soul is immortal, I have not learned that consciousness is immortal; I have learned something about the speaker's beliefs.
    - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
      No, you have learned that consciousness has something to do with immortality. Examine that for a minute, you'll see it's obviously true. Our genes are an organic mechanism seeking immortality of consciousness through instincts, some of which can be awe-inspiringly complex, like spider webs. We praise language and culture for its ability to retain information across time (approaching immortality). That you're dismissing this as some kind of lexicographical or subjective belief thing reveals how intensely your mind seeks to dismiss it. The truth is purifying fire that burns away parasitical spirits doing their damnest to convince you otherwise.
nulld3v 2y ago
I don't think we are ignoring any evidence here, there is just no evidence (or at least I haven't seen any). It seems these spirits are allergic to video or something, I have seen more video evidence of UFOs than spirits. Of course, personal experience is also valid evidence, and I have seen none of that either.

strogonoff 2y ago

I do not think consciousness requires a soul or any other magic (not a dualist myself), but you have to acknowledge that there is 1) evidence of consciousness, 2) no evidence of where it comes from, and 3) no way to prove or falsify a statement that it magically arises from entities described by modern models in natural sciences.