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The conditions the West has imposed on Ukraine are disgraceful.

dantyti 2y ago
to be fair, Ukrainians have shot down planes and helicopters in Russian airspace with Patriot batteries. The limiting conditions on doing more of that are ammunition (for cover), air defense interceptor and launcher shortages. Saying that the West is to blame for not producing cutting-edge interceptors (that are extremely in demand) as if they were knick-knacks is not entirely fair. I write this as someone who has donated a substantial percentage of my savings to support Ukrainian efforts.
- CamperBob2 2y ago
  Probably what the GP means is the requirement, imposed by the Biden administration, not to use US-supplied weapons to attack Russia directly.
- genman 2y ago
  It is very risky to move high valued assets like Patriot batteries close to the front line as in that case these assets are within the reach of low distance surveillance tools Russia has in abundance. Doing this resulted in loss of actual Patriot systems in Ukraine - these were spotted by Russian surveillance drones and then attacked using ballistic missiles. Ukraine could instead attack launch sites on Russian territory - it has been proven to be highly effective in Crimea - but Ukraine is not allowed to use Western ballistic missiles for that.
seventytwo 2y ago
[flagged]
exabrial 2y ago
You’re getting voted down which is unfortunate, because there’s a larger strategy here worth discussing. My opinion is thus: The US has learned from China’s low intensity conflict strategy. If the US had given Ukraine patriot batteries, F-16s, and tanks on day 1, The reaction from Russia could’ve been nuclear. As much as I want to see a bully get punched back in the face, It is not a good strategy to avoid disastrous escalation. Slowly ramping up the technology sent and uncuffing Ukraine gradually is the actual optimal path.
- oblio 2y ago
  Except for the fact that the US is backing down and the chances of the big aid package voted recently to be the last one are quite high. Also Ukraine is running out of people, out of money, out of everything, and regaining lost territory is slowly becoming incredibly difficult. Ukraine's future was probably ground to pieces for the next 2-3 decades due to all the Western indecision between 2022 and 2024.
  - exabrial 2y ago
    >Ukraine is running out of people, out of money, out of everything, and regaining lost territory is slowly becoming incredibly difficult I agree and recognize that is the other reality.
lupusreal 2y ago
Those conditions only apply to weapons the US and close allies have given to Ukraine. Do you think Ukraine would be better or worse off without America's help? The kind of ungrateful rhetoric your comment exemplifies creates a "no good deed goes unpunished" dynamic which embitters the American public against further military aid to Ukraine. Be grateful for what is given and don't blame failures on your few charitable benefactors.
- donottell 2y ago
  [dead]
- ChumpGPT 2y ago
  I'm American and I am ashamed of my Governments reaction. This war will reach out and touch us very personally and we will regret that we let Ukraine down. You don't have to be a genius to see what is coming our way....
ElectricBoogie 2y ago
[dead]

to be fair, Ukrainians have shot down planes and helicopters in Russian airspace with Patriot batteries. The limiting conditions on doing more of that are ammunition (for cover), air defense interceptor and launcher shortages. Saying that the West is to blame for not producing cutting-edge interceptors (that are extremely in demand) as if they were knick-knacks is not entirely fair. I write this as someone who has donated a substantial percentage of my savings to support Ukrainian efforts.

CamperBob2 2y ago
Probably what the GP means is the requirement, imposed by the Biden administration, not to use US-supplied weapons to attack Russia directly.
genman 2y ago
It is very risky to move high valued assets like Patriot batteries close to the front line as in that case these assets are within the reach of low distance surveillance tools Russia has in abundance. Doing this resulted in loss of actual Patriot systems in Ukraine - these were spotted by Russian surveillance drones and then attacked using ballistic missiles. Ukraine could instead attack launch sites on Russian territory - it has been proven to be highly effective in Crimea - but Ukraine is not allowed to use Western ballistic missiles for that.

seventytwo 2y ago

[flagged]

exabrial 2y ago

You’re getting voted down which is unfortunate, because there’s a larger strategy here worth discussing. My opinion is thus: The US has learned from China’s low intensity conflict strategy. If the US had given Ukraine patriot batteries, F-16s, and tanks on day 1, The reaction from Russia could’ve been nuclear. As much as I want to see a bully get punched back in the face, It is not a good strategy to avoid disastrous escalation. Slowly ramping up the technology sent and uncuffing Ukraine gradually is the actual optimal path.

oblio 2y ago
Except for the fact that the US is backing down and the chances of the big aid package voted recently to be the last one are quite high. Also Ukraine is running out of people, out of money, out of everything, and regaining lost territory is slowly becoming incredibly difficult. Ukraine's future was probably ground to pieces for the next 2-3 decades due to all the Western indecision between 2022 and 2024.
- exabrial 2y ago
  >Ukraine is running out of people, out of money, out of everything, and regaining lost territory is slowly becoming incredibly difficult I agree and recognize that is the other reality.

lupusreal 2y ago

Those conditions only apply to weapons the US and close allies have given to Ukraine. Do you think Ukraine would be better or worse off without America's help? The kind of ungrateful rhetoric your comment exemplifies creates a "no good deed goes unpunished" dynamic which embitters the American public against further military aid to Ukraine. Be grateful for what is given and don't blame failures on your few charitable benefactors.

donottell 2y ago
[dead]
ChumpGPT 2y ago
I'm American and I am ashamed of my Governments reaction. This war will reach out and touch us very personally and we will regret that we let Ukraine down. You don't have to be a genius to see what is coming our way....

ElectricBoogie 2y ago

[dead]