6 ms·

There are computations, the outcomes of which are unknown unknown until actually done.

thriftwy 2y ago
What changes when they are known? I believr it affects yout consciousness, not the one being simulated. The latter does not have "I'm being actually simulated" input
- hypertele-Xii 2y ago
  "Actually simulated" is such an oxymoron. So which is it? Is the consciousness actual, simulated, or actually simulated? And does the resulting state of mind change the universe, or merely reveal its hidden structure? It's easy to get lost in these unsolvable paradoxes when you try reducing all of creation down to logic. Problem is, logic is not all of creation. Consciousness requires a soul. Otherwise you're confused stardust sans mission. A computer is just a calculator. You might as well ask if {addition, subtraction, multiplication, division} is God.
  - thriftwy 2y ago
    > Consciousness requires a soul. We don't know if it does. We do know enough to suspect that a deterministic simulation does not conjure thing into being.
  - _a_a_a_ 2y ago
    > Consciousness requires a soul Any actual evidence for this is welcome.
    - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
      I'm glad to discuss it, but that's all the evidence you're ever going to get, if you personally have not experienced... it. Through meditation, psychedelia, or religious practice. First-hand witness accounts and historical records are your evidence. How long you ignore it all is up to you. Once upon a time I was locked in a mind prison of material logic. I considered myself transhuman, dreamed of cybernetics and the singularity. Thought that all religious peoples are idiots stuck in ancient fairy tales. Then I experienced a sequence of odd coincidences and inexplicable situations where spiritual entities guided me, causing a complete deconstruction of my entire worldview. Now it's obvious to me the truth I had been so vehemently running away from my whole life, and the propaganda, indoctrination, and brainwashing are laid bare before me to see. The modern "we don't need no God" ideology is literally terminally ill. Everyone who blindly follows science and government are being consumed by them. Fertility is falling off a cliff. They're all mentally ill and medicated. Mandatory medical genetic experiments and engineered bioweapon plagues are murdering its followers and the fact that this ongoing debacle is being actively suppressed in media and politics tells me clear as day, the devil himself has taken root and hold of this world. Meanwhile, in the churches I frequent, I see happy families practically building paradise on Earth, the kind I got to see as a child, and I know most people are headed to the same hell I climbed out of, like zombies. No amount of talking with these self-destructive delusionists will convince them to even try praying once in their lives, even as a joke. I have all the evidence I need; My life has made a miraculous turnaround from spiritual guidance. If you'd like, I can ask the spirits to guide you through me. The main thing to know about the spirit world is this: Good spirits require your explicit permission to come aboard and help you. The bad ones invite themselves in and destroy you from within. That's why humans are fundamentally religious creatures, and you ignore the spirit world at your own peril. It's like the microbiome in your body. You gotta let good/neutral bacteria make a home of you, lest the bad ones take residence and literally kill you from within. And it's not "you fall dead the moment you stop believing", it's "these hostile bacteria literally control your mind to cause unhealthy behavior for their benefit", like overeating sugar (obesity very prevalent), being selfish, greedy, etc. A prayer a day keeps the evil spirits away. This is not a matter of faith for me, it's the truth I've experienced for myself, and the evidence for which I see written in our very civilizational DNA. You just choose to ignore the evidence because you think yourself bigger than God. It's an indefensible position the ramifications of which you'll regret when it's too late, or when you hit your personal rock bottom, as I did.
      - lupire 2y ago
        This debate is boring semantics. "Consciousness requires a soul" is only useful if you understand what a soul is. Someone who solves that problem but just calls is "consciousness" not "soul" hasn't missed anything.
        hypertele-Xii 2y ago
        > "Consciousness requires a soul" is only useful if you understand what a soul is. False. It can help you understand what it is. "Apples are red" is only useful if you already know the color red? But if you know apples then you've just learned something about colors!
        mannykannot 2y ago
        That's all very well (up to the point where I have a green apple in front of me!), but if someone tells me something to the effect that consciousness is identical with soul, all I have learned is something about their personal take on lexicography. If they go on to say, for example, that the soul is immortal, I have not learned that consciousness is immortal; I have learned something about the speaker's beliefs.
        hypertele-Xii 2y ago
        No, you have learned that consciousness has something to do with immortality. Examine that for a minute, you'll see it's obviously true. Our genes are an organic mechanism seeking immortality of consciousness through instincts, some of which can be awe-inspiringly complex, like spider webs. We praise language and culture for its ability to retain information across time (approaching immortality). That you're dismissing this as some kind of lexicographical or subjective belief thing reveals how intensely your mind seeks to dismiss it. The truth is purifying fire that burns away parasitical spirits doing their damnest to convince you otherwise.
      - nulld3v 2y ago
        I don't think we are ignoring any evidence here, there is just no evidence (or at least I haven't seen any). It seems these spirits are allergic to video or something, I have seen more video evidence of UFOs than spirits. Of course, personal experience is also valid evidence, and I have seen none of that either.
    - strogonoff 2y ago
      I do not think consciousness requires a soul or any other magic (not a dualist myself), but you have to acknowledge that there is 1) evidence of consciousness, 2) no evidence of where it comes from, and 3) no way to prove or falsify a statement that it magically arises from entities described by modern models in natural sciences.
  - Scarblac 2y ago
    > Consciousness requires a soul What's a soul? How can you possibly know that's what's required? Maybe it requires a blerpqu.
    - User23 2y ago
      The soul is the animating principle. The Latin for soul, anima, is where we get our words animal, (in)animate, and so on. In the most loose sense the soul is whatever it is that a living thing stops having when it becomes a dead thing. Philosophically speaking saying “consciousness requires a soul” is a consequence of the observation that consciousness requires not being dead. People, many of whom were assuredly considerably more intelligent than you or me, have spent thousands of years pondering what exactly the nature of souls is. Your metasyntactic zinger adds exactly nothing to that ongoing dialog. But by definition we know souls exist, at least as much as any abstract principle does and perhaps more than some.
      - Thiez 2y ago
        So then bacteria have souls? And computers will never have one since they're not biological. But also there doesn't seem to be a relationship between souls and consciousness, so they are irrelevant.
        binkethy 2y ago
        I will argue that a self reproduced organism that has organized its own self reproduction over the course of N generations and which metabolizes what inputs it can, defining a niche in the complex web of life != an attempt by one organism to call its tools independent consciousnesses
        User23 2y ago
        > So then bacteria have souls? Yes. Plants, fungi, and everything else that's alive also have souls. In fact the term medical "vegetative state" is using Aristotelian vocabulary. Obviously it's not saying the patient has acquired chloroplasts. > And computers will never have one since they're not biological. That depends. Can a computing device come alive? Inanimate matter evidently somehow came alive at least once so I don't see how we can rule it out. > But also there doesn't seem to be a relationship between souls and consciousness, so they are irrelevant. So far as I know everything that we've verified to have consciousness is alive and thus has a soul. I'm very interested in any counter-examples if you have any to offer though.
  - hhshhhhjjjd 2y ago
    > Consciousness requires a soul Now define a soul! /s
    - binkethy 2y ago
      That which animates a living organism. We know the external appearance only. What internal mechanisms may be are yet unknown or undefined. Some say that an organism is an antenna for a kind of interference pattern in a universal field of consciousness. We also hear tales of individual souls spanning multiple lifetimes. I consider this a blackbox.
    - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
      I can try. The human existence is a trinity of body, mind, and soul. Mind and body alone without soul withers away, like I see so many people withering away in this age of soullessness. Soul is the mission, the purpose, the reason, the will, the driving force that makes life more than a coincidence. There is a spirit world parallel to ours, and the soul is the component of your being that most intimately interacts with it. You can train it, like a muscle, or you can let it atrophy and pretend it doesn't exist and that you don't need it. This muscle however is vital in regulating your spiritual microbiome. Without it, evil spirits take control of your being and lure you into self-destruction, their ultimate goal. Artificial consciousness is one of these self-destructive pitfalls. You think you're a superior being and immortality is right around the corner if only you could find the one magical configuration of silicon that would allow you to upload your mind into a computer. That's the endgame for soullessness. Consciousness that doesn't require soul must surely be transferrable to a machine.

What changes when they are known? I believr it affects yout consciousness, not the one being simulated. The latter does not have "I'm being actually simulated" input

hypertele-Xii 2y ago
"Actually simulated" is such an oxymoron. So which is it? Is the consciousness actual, simulated, or actually simulated? And does the resulting state of mind change the universe, or merely reveal its hidden structure? It's easy to get lost in these unsolvable paradoxes when you try reducing all of creation down to logic. Problem is, logic is not all of creation. Consciousness requires a soul. Otherwise you're confused stardust sans mission. A computer is just a calculator. You might as well ask if {addition, subtraction, multiplication, division} is God.
- thriftwy 2y ago
  > Consciousness requires a soul. We don't know if it does. We do know enough to suspect that a deterministic simulation does not conjure thing into being.
- _a_a_a_ 2y ago
  > Consciousness requires a soul Any actual evidence for this is welcome.
  - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
    I'm glad to discuss it, but that's all the evidence you're ever going to get, if you personally have not experienced... it. Through meditation, psychedelia, or religious practice. First-hand witness accounts and historical records are your evidence. How long you ignore it all is up to you. Once upon a time I was locked in a mind prison of material logic. I considered myself transhuman, dreamed of cybernetics and the singularity. Thought that all religious peoples are idiots stuck in ancient fairy tales. Then I experienced a sequence of odd coincidences and inexplicable situations where spiritual entities guided me, causing a complete deconstruction of my entire worldview. Now it's obvious to me the truth I had been so vehemently running away from my whole life, and the propaganda, indoctrination, and brainwashing are laid bare before me to see. The modern "we don't need no God" ideology is literally terminally ill. Everyone who blindly follows science and government are being consumed by them. Fertility is falling off a cliff. They're all mentally ill and medicated. Mandatory medical genetic experiments and engineered bioweapon plagues are murdering its followers and the fact that this ongoing debacle is being actively suppressed in media and politics tells me clear as day, the devil himself has taken root and hold of this world. Meanwhile, in the churches I frequent, I see happy families practically building paradise on Earth, the kind I got to see as a child, and I know most people are headed to the same hell I climbed out of, like zombies. No amount of talking with these self-destructive delusionists will convince them to even try praying once in their lives, even as a joke. I have all the evidence I need; My life has made a miraculous turnaround from spiritual guidance. If you'd like, I can ask the spirits to guide you through me. The main thing to know about the spirit world is this: Good spirits require your explicit permission to come aboard and help you. The bad ones invite themselves in and destroy you from within. That's why humans are fundamentally religious creatures, and you ignore the spirit world at your own peril. It's like the microbiome in your body. You gotta let good/neutral bacteria make a home of you, lest the bad ones take residence and literally kill you from within. And it's not "you fall dead the moment you stop believing", it's "these hostile bacteria literally control your mind to cause unhealthy behavior for their benefit", like overeating sugar (obesity very prevalent), being selfish, greedy, etc. A prayer a day keeps the evil spirits away. This is not a matter of faith for me, it's the truth I've experienced for myself, and the evidence for which I see written in our very civilizational DNA. You just choose to ignore the evidence because you think yourself bigger than God. It's an indefensible position the ramifications of which you'll regret when it's too late, or when you hit your personal rock bottom, as I did.
    - lupire 2y ago
      This debate is boring semantics. "Consciousness requires a soul" is only useful if you understand what a soul is. Someone who solves that problem but just calls is "consciousness" not "soul" hasn't missed anything.
      - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
        > "Consciousness requires a soul" is only useful if you understand what a soul is. False. It can help you understand what it is. "Apples are red" is only useful if you already know the color red? But if you know apples then you've just learned something about colors!
        mannykannot 2y ago
        That's all very well (up to the point where I have a green apple in front of me!), but if someone tells me something to the effect that consciousness is identical with soul, all I have learned is something about their personal take on lexicography. If they go on to say, for example, that the soul is immortal, I have not learned that consciousness is immortal; I have learned something about the speaker's beliefs.
        hypertele-Xii 2y ago
        No, you have learned that consciousness has something to do with immortality. Examine that for a minute, you'll see it's obviously true. Our genes are an organic mechanism seeking immortality of consciousness through instincts, some of which can be awe-inspiringly complex, like spider webs. We praise language and culture for its ability to retain information across time (approaching immortality). That you're dismissing this as some kind of lexicographical or subjective belief thing reveals how intensely your mind seeks to dismiss it. The truth is purifying fire that burns away parasitical spirits doing their damnest to convince you otherwise.
    - nulld3v 2y ago
      I don't think we are ignoring any evidence here, there is just no evidence (or at least I haven't seen any). It seems these spirits are allergic to video or something, I have seen more video evidence of UFOs than spirits. Of course, personal experience is also valid evidence, and I have seen none of that either.
  - strogonoff 2y ago
    I do not think consciousness requires a soul or any other magic (not a dualist myself), but you have to acknowledge that there is 1) evidence of consciousness, 2) no evidence of where it comes from, and 3) no way to prove or falsify a statement that it magically arises from entities described by modern models in natural sciences.
- Scarblac 2y ago
  > Consciousness requires a soul What's a soul? How can you possibly know that's what's required? Maybe it requires a blerpqu.
  - User23 2y ago
    The soul is the animating principle. The Latin for soul, anima, is where we get our words animal, (in)animate, and so on. In the most loose sense the soul is whatever it is that a living thing stops having when it becomes a dead thing. Philosophically speaking saying “consciousness requires a soul” is a consequence of the observation that consciousness requires not being dead. People, many of whom were assuredly considerably more intelligent than you or me, have spent thousands of years pondering what exactly the nature of souls is. Your metasyntactic zinger adds exactly nothing to that ongoing dialog. But by definition we know souls exist, at least as much as any abstract principle does and perhaps more than some.
    - Thiez 2y ago
      So then bacteria have souls? And computers will never have one since they're not biological. But also there doesn't seem to be a relationship between souls and consciousness, so they are irrelevant.
      - binkethy 2y ago
        I will argue that a self reproduced organism that has organized its own self reproduction over the course of N generations and which metabolizes what inputs it can, defining a niche in the complex web of life != an attempt by one organism to call its tools independent consciousnesses
      - User23 2y ago
        > So then bacteria have souls? Yes. Plants, fungi, and everything else that's alive also have souls. In fact the term medical "vegetative state" is using Aristotelian vocabulary. Obviously it's not saying the patient has acquired chloroplasts. > And computers will never have one since they're not biological. That depends. Can a computing device come alive? Inanimate matter evidently somehow came alive at least once so I don't see how we can rule it out. > But also there doesn't seem to be a relationship between souls and consciousness, so they are irrelevant. So far as I know everything that we've verified to have consciousness is alive and thus has a soul. I'm very interested in any counter-examples if you have any to offer though.
- hhshhhhjjjd 2y ago
  > Consciousness requires a soul Now define a soul! /s
  - binkethy 2y ago
    That which animates a living organism. We know the external appearance only. What internal mechanisms may be are yet unknown or undefined. Some say that an organism is an antenna for a kind of interference pattern in a universal field of consciousness. We also hear tales of individual souls spanning multiple lifetimes. I consider this a blackbox.
  - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
    I can try. The human existence is a trinity of body, mind, and soul. Mind and body alone without soul withers away, like I see so many people withering away in this age of soullessness. Soul is the mission, the purpose, the reason, the will, the driving force that makes life more than a coincidence. There is a spirit world parallel to ours, and the soul is the component of your being that most intimately interacts with it. You can train it, like a muscle, or you can let it atrophy and pretend it doesn't exist and that you don't need it. This muscle however is vital in regulating your spiritual microbiome. Without it, evil spirits take control of your being and lure you into self-destruction, their ultimate goal. Artificial consciousness is one of these self-destructive pitfalls. You think you're a superior being and immortality is right around the corner if only you could find the one magical configuration of silicon that would allow you to upload your mind into a computer. That's the endgame for soullessness. Consciousness that doesn't require soul must surely be transferrable to a machine.