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We may be reading different Wikipedia articles? None of the definitions suggested by Wikipedia includes the Iberian peninsula: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/W

We may be reading different Wikipedia articles? None of the definitions suggested by Wikipedia includes the Iberian peninsula: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe > think a more colloquial/informal/layperson definition would include them. With respect, I think the opposite is true. I think you might just have discovered a personal blindspot.

thaumasiotes 2y ago
> We may be reading different Wikipedia articles? None of the definitions suggested by Wikipedia includes the Iberian peninsula: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe Or maybe he's reading that article and you aren't? The only definitions in that article that don't include Spain and Portugal in Western Europe are the ones in which Eastern Europe and Western Europe fail to cover all of Europe. And those tend to include Turkey in Europe, which is bizarre.
- closewith 2y ago
  > The only definitions in that article that don't include Spain and Portugal in Western Europe are the ones in which Eastern Europe and Western Europe fail to cover all of Europe. Which is all of them in common use? I'm honestly not sure if you read the article. Do you have the impression that the terms Western and Eastern Europe cover the entire continent? That is a concept divorced from reality. Edit: Just read your other comment here. Yes, your idea of Eastern and Western Europe is completely divorced from common usage.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > Which is all of them in common use? Well, no, none of those are in common use. In common usage, Western Europe might be countries that are culturally Western (and in Europe), or countries that are clients of the United States (and in Europe), but neither of those would exclude Spain or Portugal. There's not much difference between the two ideas either.
    - closewith 2y ago
      I appreciate that's what you believe, but you're simply wrong on this one. Ask around your own social circle.
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        I mean, here's Time Magazine: > There’s also a risk that grain yields will be curbed even more across western Europe, particularly in France, Spain and Portugal, according to Paris-based analyst Agritel. ( https://time.com/6187780/summer-heat-wave-europe-2022/ https://time.com/6187780/summer-heat-wave-europe-2022/ ) Or even more explicitly: > Meanwhile, xenophobia in Spain is comparatively low compared to the rest of western Europe. ( https://time.com/4904858/jihadism-in-spain-history/ https://time.com/4904858/jihadism-in-spain-history/ ) Here's the Washington Post: > A historic and deadly heat wave has been scorching western Europe, killing hundreds in Spain and Portugal. ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/07/18/heatwave-europe-unitedstates-records-uk/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/07/1... ) This isn't exactly an obscure question. I'm not sure where you got the idea that Spain might not be part of Western Europe, but it wasn't by contact with reality.
        closewith 2y ago
        Three counter examples against literally millions in common use, including how the countries involved refer to themselves. > This isn't exactly an obscure question. I'm not sure where you got the idea that Spain might not be part of Western Europe, but it wasn't by contact with reality. I take it you did ask your social circle and didn't get the response you wanted, as you're right that this isn't an obscure question.
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        Here's the first person I asked: > What would you say is included in "Western Europe"? > Germany > Anything else? > Spain, why? You really don't seem to have any idea how people use this term, what might be evidence of common usage, or how newspapers work. Documenting that major media outlets refer to Spain as part of Western Europe is already proof that common usage considers Spain part of Western Europe, unless you have specific reasons to discount those outlets (such as "that's The New Yorker"). Article authors can't just use whatever terminology pops into their head; this is why style guides exist. One example from the Washington Post means hundreds of examples from the Washington Post. Here's what Spain thinks of itself: ( https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_Occidental https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_Occidental ) > en verde en general según el concepto tradicional usado en geopolítica [in [non-dark] green generally following the traditional concept used in geopolitics]

thaumasiotes 2y ago

> We may be reading different Wikipedia articles? None of the definitions suggested by Wikipedia includes the Iberian peninsula: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe Or maybe he's reading that article and you aren't? The only definitions in that article that don't include Spain and Portugal in Western Europe are the ones in which Eastern Europe and Western Europe fail to cover all of Europe. And those tend to include Turkey in Europe, which is bizarre.

closewith 2y ago
> The only definitions in that article that don't include Spain and Portugal in Western Europe are the ones in which Eastern Europe and Western Europe fail to cover all of Europe. Which is all of them in common use? I'm honestly not sure if you read the article. Do you have the impression that the terms Western and Eastern Europe cover the entire continent? That is a concept divorced from reality. Edit: Just read your other comment here. Yes, your idea of Eastern and Western Europe is completely divorced from common usage.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > Which is all of them in common use? Well, no, none of those are in common use. In common usage, Western Europe might be countries that are culturally Western (and in Europe), or countries that are clients of the United States (and in Europe), but neither of those would exclude Spain or Portugal. There's not much difference between the two ideas either.
  - closewith 2y ago
    I appreciate that's what you believe, but you're simply wrong on this one. Ask around your own social circle.
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      I mean, here's Time Magazine: > There’s also a risk that grain yields will be curbed even more across western Europe, particularly in France, Spain and Portugal, according to Paris-based analyst Agritel. ( https://time.com/6187780/summer-heat-wave-europe-2022/ https://time.com/6187780/summer-heat-wave-europe-2022/ ) Or even more explicitly: > Meanwhile, xenophobia in Spain is comparatively low compared to the rest of western Europe. ( https://time.com/4904858/jihadism-in-spain-history/ https://time.com/4904858/jihadism-in-spain-history/ ) Here's the Washington Post: > A historic and deadly heat wave has been scorching western Europe, killing hundreds in Spain and Portugal. ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/07/18/heatwave-europe-unitedstates-records-uk/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/07/1... ) This isn't exactly an obscure question. I'm not sure where you got the idea that Spain might not be part of Western Europe, but it wasn't by contact with reality.
      - closewith 2y ago
        Three counter examples against literally millions in common use, including how the countries involved refer to themselves. > This isn't exactly an obscure question. I'm not sure where you got the idea that Spain might not be part of Western Europe, but it wasn't by contact with reality. I take it you did ask your social circle and didn't get the response you wanted, as you're right that this isn't an obscure question.
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        Here's the first person I asked: > What would you say is included in "Western Europe"? > Germany > Anything else? > Spain, why? You really don't seem to have any idea how people use this term, what might be evidence of common usage, or how newspapers work. Documenting that major media outlets refer to Spain as part of Western Europe is already proof that common usage considers Spain part of Western Europe, unless you have specific reasons to discount those outlets (such as "that's The New Yorker"). Article authors can't just use whatever terminology pops into their head; this is why style guides exist. One example from the Washington Post means hundreds of examples from the Washington Post. Here's what Spain thinks of itself: ( https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_Occidental https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_Occidental ) > en verde en general según el concepto tradicional usado en geopolítica [in [non-dark] green generally following the traditional concept used in geopolitics]