5 ms·

Isn’t Lisbon the most western capital city in Europe? Not sure how that doesn’t count as Western Europe? As a Brit I maybe have a different view of eastern and

Isn’t Lisbon the most western capital city in Europe? Not sure how that doesn’t count as Western Europe? As a Brit I maybe have a different view of eastern and Western Europe but to me the dividing line is probably a vertical line through … Prague?

walthamstow 2y ago
Traditionally the dividing line is Vienna, though that doesn't make it any clearer because Prague is west of Vienna
- simonbarker87 2y ago
  Yeh I was going to say Vienna and then saw where Prague is and switched. I guess it’s a fuzzy line.
closewith 2y ago
Both the areas called Northern Europe and Southern Europe extend more Westerly than Western Europe. More or less no common definition of Western Europe includes the Iberian peninsula.
- simonbarker87 2y ago
  At the risk of sounding belligerent - Wikipedia seems to include Spain and Portugal in its definition of Western Europe. Perhaps there are formal economic or historic definitions that don’t count them but I think a more colloquial/informal/layperson definition would include them.
  - closewith 2y ago
    We may be reading different Wikipedia articles? None of the definitions suggested by Wikipedia includes the Iberian peninsula: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe > think a more colloquial/informal/layperson definition would include them. With respect, I think the opposite is true. I think you might just have discovered a personal blindspot.
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      > We may be reading different Wikipedia articles? None of the definitions suggested by Wikipedia includes the Iberian peninsula: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe Or maybe he's reading that article and you aren't? The only definitions in that article that don't include Spain and Portugal in Western Europe are the ones in which Eastern Europe and Western Europe fail to cover all of Europe. And those tend to include Turkey in Europe, which is bizarre.
      - closewith 2y ago
        > The only definitions in that article that don't include Spain and Portugal in Western Europe are the ones in which Eastern Europe and Western Europe fail to cover all of Europe. Which is all of them in common use? I'm honestly not sure if you read the article. Do you have the impression that the terms Western and Eastern Europe cover the entire continent? That is a concept divorced from reality. Edit: Just read your other comment here. Yes, your idea of Eastern and Western Europe is completely divorced from common usage.
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        > Which is all of them in common use? Well, no, none of those are in common use. In common usage, Western Europe might be countries that are culturally Western (and in Europe), or countries that are clients of the United States (and in Europe), but neither of those would exclude Spain or Portugal. There's not much difference between the two ideas either.
        closewith 2y ago
        I appreciate that's what you believe, but you're simply wrong on this one. Ask around your own social circle.
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        I mean, here's Time Magazine: > There’s also a risk that grain yields will be curbed even more across western Europe, particularly in France, Spain and Portugal, according to Paris-based analyst Agritel. ( https://time.com/6187780/summer-heat-wave-europe-2022/ https://time.com/6187780/summer-heat-wave-europe-2022/ ) Or even more explicitly: > Meanwhile, xenophobia in Spain is comparatively low compared to the rest of western Europe. ( https://time.com/4904858/jihadism-in-spain-history/ https://time.com/4904858/jihadism-in-spain-history/ ) Here's the Washington Post: > A historic and deadly heat wave has been scorching western Europe, killing hundreds in Spain and Portugal. ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/07/18/heatwave-europe-unitedstates-records-uk/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/07/1... ) This isn't exactly an obscure question. I'm not sure where you got the idea that Spain might not be part of Western Europe, but it wasn't by contact with reality.
thaumasiotes 2y ago
> As a Brit I maybe have a different view of eastern and Western Europe but to me the dividing line is probably a vertical line through … Prague? It shouldn't be a vertical line at all; I assume the typical division between Eastern and Western Europe would be Catholicism vs Eastern Orthodoxy. They're Eastern Europe and Western Europe because Eastern Europe lies to the east of Western Europe, not because every part of Eastern Europe lies to the east of every part of Western Europe.

walthamstow 2y ago

Traditionally the dividing line is Vienna, though that doesn't make it any clearer because Prague is west of Vienna

simonbarker87 2y ago
Yeh I was going to say Vienna and then saw where Prague is and switched. I guess it’s a fuzzy line.

closewith 2y ago

Both the areas called Northern Europe and Southern Europe extend more Westerly than Western Europe. More or less no common definition of Western Europe includes the Iberian peninsula.

simonbarker87 2y ago
At the risk of sounding belligerent - Wikipedia seems to include Spain and Portugal in its definition of Western Europe. Perhaps there are formal economic or historic definitions that don’t count them but I think a more colloquial/informal/layperson definition would include them.
- closewith 2y ago
  We may be reading different Wikipedia articles? None of the definitions suggested by Wikipedia includes the Iberian peninsula: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe > think a more colloquial/informal/layperson definition would include them. With respect, I think the opposite is true. I think you might just have discovered a personal blindspot.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > We may be reading different Wikipedia articles? None of the definitions suggested by Wikipedia includes the Iberian peninsula: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe Or maybe he's reading that article and you aren't? The only definitions in that article that don't include Spain and Portugal in Western Europe are the ones in which Eastern Europe and Western Europe fail to cover all of Europe. And those tend to include Turkey in Europe, which is bizarre.
    - closewith 2y ago
      > The only definitions in that article that don't include Spain and Portugal in Western Europe are the ones in which Eastern Europe and Western Europe fail to cover all of Europe. Which is all of them in common use? I'm honestly not sure if you read the article. Do you have the impression that the terms Western and Eastern Europe cover the entire continent? That is a concept divorced from reality. Edit: Just read your other comment here. Yes, your idea of Eastern and Western Europe is completely divorced from common usage.
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        > Which is all of them in common use? Well, no, none of those are in common use. In common usage, Western Europe might be countries that are culturally Western (and in Europe), or countries that are clients of the United States (and in Europe), but neither of those would exclude Spain or Portugal. There's not much difference between the two ideas either.
        closewith 2y ago
        I appreciate that's what you believe, but you're simply wrong on this one. Ask around your own social circle.
        thaumasiotes 2y ago
        I mean, here's Time Magazine: > There’s also a risk that grain yields will be curbed even more across western Europe, particularly in France, Spain and Portugal, according to Paris-based analyst Agritel. ( https://time.com/6187780/summer-heat-wave-europe-2022/ https://time.com/6187780/summer-heat-wave-europe-2022/ ) Or even more explicitly: > Meanwhile, xenophobia in Spain is comparatively low compared to the rest of western Europe. ( https://time.com/4904858/jihadism-in-spain-history/ https://time.com/4904858/jihadism-in-spain-history/ ) Here's the Washington Post: > A historic and deadly heat wave has been scorching western Europe, killing hundreds in Spain and Portugal. ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/07/18/heatwave-europe-unitedstates-records-uk/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/07/1... ) This isn't exactly an obscure question. I'm not sure where you got the idea that Spain might not be part of Western Europe, but it wasn't by contact with reality.

thaumasiotes 2y ago

> As a Brit I maybe have a different view of eastern and Western Europe but to me the dividing line is probably a vertical line through … Prague? It shouldn't be a vertical line at all; I assume the typical division between Eastern and Western Europe would be Catholicism vs Eastern Orthodoxy. They're Eastern Europe and Western Europe because Eastern Europe lies to the east of Western Europe, not because every part of Eastern Europe lies to the east of every part of Western Europe.