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Japan is an incredibly paternalistic society that makes heavy use of peer pressure to enforce social norms. As the writer notes the government literally taxes a

Japan is an incredibly paternalistic society that makes heavy use of peer pressure to enforce social norms. As the writer notes the government literally taxes all your coworkers if you are fat. It sounds unbelievably humiliating. Im happy this works for the japanese but personally have zero desire to live a society like that.

lagrange77 2y ago
I think drill sergeants use the same technique.
slothtrop 2y ago
I don't think you can make the case that nations' BMI is inversely correlated with peer pressure. For one it's difficult to measure, and that tax for example is a new phenomenon. The US has been an early leader in obesity trends, by way of pioneering mass produced junk foods / fast foods and seeing mass adoption early (and you can make the case for other environmental influences like being a nation that began to be built for driving rather than walking). Other countries who clung on to "old ways" longer had the benefit of seeing the outcome of US approach in this respect and there is little resistance/pushback to both cultural trends and policies meant to deter obesity. All of which to say I don't think Japan's relatively better health outcomes has to do with exceptional peer pressure. Many European countries are more culturally individualist (though less than the US) and still come out better than the US. The other point I would argue is that there are social pressures everywhere, the expectations are merely different. You can also distinguish some by political divide.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  I doubt junk food is the cause. More like eating massive amounts of sugar.
  - slothtrop 2y ago
    > I doubt junk food is the cause Why? > sugar. By way of junk food (sweetened drinks are junk, boxed cookies are junk). Added sugar is one way to facilitate consumption of excess calories, the other is flour + added fat + salt, absent fiber and protein. (and also deep frying).
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      > Why? Because I run a lot, and was steadily gaining weight. Stopping eating all desserts, pies, boxes of cookies, candy, soda, etc. resulted in slowly losing weight. I still eat high fat foods, chips, cheese, etc.
      - slothtrop 2y ago
        High fat foods aren't necessarily junk foods, and presumably your intake of chips is moderate/low. They are not satiating and calorie dense, but of course drinks are the worst for that, they offer nearly 0 satiety for the price of calories. Cheese is relatively satiating, milk protein and animal proteins are in general.
feyman_r 2y ago
I think the intent of the article is to express that the obesity epidemic should be treated like a problem of culture and society and not an individual. Eastern societies have different ways of dealing with things than Western, and that’s ok. A person should not feel humiliated, but that’s a relative feeling by culture - the law seems to be working for them. I am obese myself - whenever I visit Asia (China, Japan, Vietnam, India etc.), the difference in diet and daily walking lingers on for a bit back here in the US but I regress to the ‘cultural mean’ here very soon. At least I know I can change my habits when the right support system is around me.
- mc32 2y ago
  In the west it’s becoming frowned upon to observe that someone is fat (obese). Doctors have to tip-toe around the issue lest some patients become offended[1]. Some patients take it as fat (obesity)-shaming rather than what it is advice to seek being healthier. Some see being fat as something to celebrate. I don’t think I would celebrate any medical condition I had, be it fat, skinny, one-eyed, one-legged, etc. We can of course learn to cope and live with the conditions, but celebrate? That’s backwards to me. [1]https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1733624/obesity-fat-shaming-patients-nhs https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1733624/obesity-...
  - pwdisswordfishc 2y ago
    In the USA, you mean.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    I think it's just the pendulum swinging back the other way after it swung this way during the 19th to 20th centuries. Being fat was considered appealing in ye olde times, because it indicated to your peers that you had more access to food. Being lean became popular (again) in more recent times, especially with advances in entertainment like cinema and fashion magazines. Now that entertainment is lambasted for seeding unrealistic (and in some cases even harmful) expectations, so too has popularity for leanness waned. The pendulum will swing back again, of course. Before being fat became appealing, the ancient Greeks and Romans certainly preferred lean figures, judging by all their marble statues and other cultural artifacts.
InstantOats 2y ago
Maybe there's a reason why these social pressures exist? I'd MUCH rather live in a society that shames people for being fat than one that bends over backwards to accommodate obesity. The social and financial cost of 42% of all adults being obese in the US[0] must be so high as to be incalculable. [0] https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statisti...
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  Id be happy to see a tax on fat people due to the externalities they place on the healthcare system. Im not happy to see policy that uses peer pressure though. I dont think the government should be shaming people for questionable activities that arent illegal. I really dont think the government should be in the business of shame at all.
  - brohoolio 2y ago
    I'd argue the way American culture is constructed (drive everywhere, less opportunities to walk, folks are socially isolated) in a way that actually puts people in a situation where they are much more likely to be overweight. So the costs are ones we as a society are putting on individuals are coming back to bite everyone in the ass.
    - HDThoreaun 2y ago
      Of course there are tons of other ways that Japanese society makes it easier to be skinny than American society does. Im just saying that some portion is the shame culture, not sure how much and not sure if its possible to figure that out, but I do know that Im not interested in trying that method.
  - paulmd 2y ago
    There’s pretty solid evidence that lifetime healthcare spending is actually lower for obese people, even in European countries with better allocation towards younger populations. In the US, it’s definitely cheaper to have people dying young before they get that third hip replacement and two rounds of chemo. > one-unit decrease in BMI showed gains in life expectancy ranging from 0.65 to 0.68 year and changes in total health care costs varying from -€1563 to +€4832. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37222003/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37222003/ You should at least consider the possibility that you’ve unfairly jumped to assertions about “cost” out of another layer of paternalism that is not warranted by the facts. Like the whole “muh tax/healthcare dollars” may actually be backwards and having them live longer might well end up costing you more. That is the essence of the CBO paper that was discussed yesterday too: curing the obese doesn’t really reduce lifetime healthcare spending, because the US healthcare system barely spends anything on anyone who isn’t an AARP member anyway, and reducing obesity is going to lead to a lot more AARP members in 10-20 years. Which is a good thing, but also not going to be a net financial benefit, especially when you only are paying for seniors to begin with and don’t see any of the healthy-population benefits. This is the problem with all these discussions around obesity, everyone treats it as a moral failing and automatically assumes every other factor falls into line backing their ideal moral stance etc. And money doesn’t really care about morality, it’s quite cheap to have people die early before they get the third knee replacement and the second round of chemo. People have been doing the “ugly people = worse/morally inferior/less deserving” since the dawn of time and people today have somehow convinced themselves they’re immune. But morality doesn’t necessarily line up with practical reality, in this case finances.
lozenge 2y ago
It is not the cause of their slimness. There isn't any country which has successfully reduced its obesity. The trend has only been in one direction.
ClimaxGravely 2y ago
Are you referring to the Metabo law section? I'm not sure if I overlooked something but I don't see anything about co-workers paying a tax. Are you referring to the potential fine the company pays? For what it's worth. I've worked at a Japanese company since the program was introduced in 2008 and don't recall that happening. I'll have to ask some of my former co-workers about it next time I see them. upon further investigation I might not have experienced it because I was under the ago of 40 when I worked in Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax
analog31 2y ago
We are taxed for obesity through our health insurance premiums.
consumer451 2y ago
Related to your comment, I read a post today from an apparently over-weight person who has lived in Japan for a while. > I've been in Japan for 15 years (visiting for 20) and for most of this time, doctors had no problems calling patients "fat" right to their faces. Now things have changed, though, and doctors are coming up with a bunch of diff. euphemisms. Last week, one hit me w/ "You're... blessed with size." https://bsky.app/profile/ostrichson.bsky.social/post/3ksqebxkmoz2z https://bsky.app/profile/ostrichson.bsky.social/post/3ksqebx...

lagrange77 2y ago

I think drill sergeants use the same technique.

slothtrop 2y ago

I don't think you can make the case that nations' BMI is inversely correlated with peer pressure. For one it's difficult to measure, and that tax for example is a new phenomenon. The US has been an early leader in obesity trends, by way of pioneering mass produced junk foods / fast foods and seeing mass adoption early (and you can make the case for other environmental influences like being a nation that began to be built for driving rather than walking). Other countries who clung on to "old ways" longer had the benefit of seeing the outcome of US approach in this respect and there is little resistance/pushback to both cultural trends and policies meant to deter obesity. All of which to say I don't think Japan's relatively better health outcomes has to do with exceptional peer pressure. Many European countries are more culturally individualist (though less than the US) and still come out better than the US. The other point I would argue is that there are social pressures everywhere, the expectations are merely different. You can also distinguish some by political divide.

WalterBright 2y ago
I doubt junk food is the cause. More like eating massive amounts of sugar.
- slothtrop 2y ago
  > I doubt junk food is the cause Why? > sugar. By way of junk food (sweetened drinks are junk, boxed cookies are junk). Added sugar is one way to facilitate consumption of excess calories, the other is flour + added fat + salt, absent fiber and protein. (and also deep frying).
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > Why? Because I run a lot, and was steadily gaining weight. Stopping eating all desserts, pies, boxes of cookies, candy, soda, etc. resulted in slowly losing weight. I still eat high fat foods, chips, cheese, etc.
    - slothtrop 2y ago
      High fat foods aren't necessarily junk foods, and presumably your intake of chips is moderate/low. They are not satiating and calorie dense, but of course drinks are the worst for that, they offer nearly 0 satiety for the price of calories. Cheese is relatively satiating, milk protein and animal proteins are in general.

feyman_r 2y ago

I think the intent of the article is to express that the obesity epidemic should be treated like a problem of culture and society and not an individual. Eastern societies have different ways of dealing with things than Western, and that’s ok. A person should not feel humiliated, but that’s a relative feeling by culture - the law seems to be working for them. I am obese myself - whenever I visit Asia (China, Japan, Vietnam, India etc.), the difference in diet and daily walking lingers on for a bit back here in the US but I regress to the ‘cultural mean’ here very soon. At least I know I can change my habits when the right support system is around me.

mc32 2y ago
In the west it’s becoming frowned upon to observe that someone is fat (obese). Doctors have to tip-toe around the issue lest some patients become offended[1]. Some patients take it as fat (obesity)-shaming rather than what it is advice to seek being healthier. Some see being fat as something to celebrate. I don’t think I would celebrate any medical condition I had, be it fat, skinny, one-eyed, one-legged, etc. We can of course learn to cope and live with the conditions, but celebrate? That’s backwards to me. [1]https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1733624/obesity-fat-shaming-patients-nhs https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1733624/obesity-...
- pwdisswordfishc 2y ago
  In the USA, you mean.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  I think it's just the pendulum swinging back the other way after it swung this way during the 19th to 20th centuries. Being fat was considered appealing in ye olde times, because it indicated to your peers that you had more access to food. Being lean became popular (again) in more recent times, especially with advances in entertainment like cinema and fashion magazines. Now that entertainment is lambasted for seeding unrealistic (and in some cases even harmful) expectations, so too has popularity for leanness waned. The pendulum will swing back again, of course. Before being fat became appealing, the ancient Greeks and Romans certainly preferred lean figures, judging by all their marble statues and other cultural artifacts.

InstantOats 2y ago

Maybe there's a reason why these social pressures exist? I'd MUCH rather live in a society that shames people for being fat than one that bends over backwards to accommodate obesity. The social and financial cost of 42% of all adults being obese in the US[0] must be so high as to be incalculable. [0] https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statisti...

HDThoreaun 2y ago
Id be happy to see a tax on fat people due to the externalities they place on the healthcare system. Im not happy to see policy that uses peer pressure though. I dont think the government should be shaming people for questionable activities that arent illegal. I really dont think the government should be in the business of shame at all.
- brohoolio 2y ago
  I'd argue the way American culture is constructed (drive everywhere, less opportunities to walk, folks are socially isolated) in a way that actually puts people in a situation where they are much more likely to be overweight. So the costs are ones we as a society are putting on individuals are coming back to bite everyone in the ass.
  - HDThoreaun 2y ago
    Of course there are tons of other ways that Japanese society makes it easier to be skinny than American society does. Im just saying that some portion is the shame culture, not sure how much and not sure if its possible to figure that out, but I do know that Im not interested in trying that method.
- paulmd 2y ago
  There’s pretty solid evidence that lifetime healthcare spending is actually lower for obese people, even in European countries with better allocation towards younger populations. In the US, it’s definitely cheaper to have people dying young before they get that third hip replacement and two rounds of chemo. > one-unit decrease in BMI showed gains in life expectancy ranging from 0.65 to 0.68 year and changes in total health care costs varying from -€1563 to +€4832. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37222003/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37222003/ You should at least consider the possibility that you’ve unfairly jumped to assertions about “cost” out of another layer of paternalism that is not warranted by the facts. Like the whole “muh tax/healthcare dollars” may actually be backwards and having them live longer might well end up costing you more. That is the essence of the CBO paper that was discussed yesterday too: curing the obese doesn’t really reduce lifetime healthcare spending, because the US healthcare system barely spends anything on anyone who isn’t an AARP member anyway, and reducing obesity is going to lead to a lot more AARP members in 10-20 years. Which is a good thing, but also not going to be a net financial benefit, especially when you only are paying for seniors to begin with and don’t see any of the healthy-population benefits. This is the problem with all these discussions around obesity, everyone treats it as a moral failing and automatically assumes every other factor falls into line backing their ideal moral stance etc. And money doesn’t really care about morality, it’s quite cheap to have people die early before they get the third knee replacement and the second round of chemo. People have been doing the “ugly people = worse/morally inferior/less deserving” since the dawn of time and people today have somehow convinced themselves they’re immune. But morality doesn’t necessarily line up with practical reality, in this case finances.

lozenge 2y ago

It is not the cause of their slimness. There isn't any country which has successfully reduced its obesity. The trend has only been in one direction.

ClimaxGravely 2y ago

Are you referring to the Metabo law section? I'm not sure if I overlooked something but I don't see anything about co-workers paying a tax. Are you referring to the potential fine the company pays? For what it's worth. I've worked at a Japanese company since the program was introduced in 2008 and don't recall that happening. I'll have to ask some of my former co-workers about it next time I see them. upon further investigation I might not have experienced it because I was under the ago of 40 when I worked in Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax

analog31 2y ago

We are taxed for obesity through our health insurance premiums.

consumer451 2y ago

Related to your comment, I read a post today from an apparently over-weight person who has lived in Japan for a while. > I've been in Japan for 15 years (visiting for 20) and for most of this time, doctors had no problems calling patients "fat" right to their faces. Now things have changed, though, and doctors are coming up with a bunch of diff. euphemisms. Last week, one hit me w/ "You're... blessed with size." https://bsky.app/profile/ostrichson.bsky.social/post/3ksqebxkmoz2z https://bsky.app/profile/ostrichson.bsky.social/post/3ksqebx...