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So what was first, Russia invading neighbors, or neighbors wanting to join NATO? I'll give you the answer: Chechnya. Thinking that Russia would never invade a

So what was first, Russia invading neighbors, or neighbors wanting to join NATO? I'll give you the answer: Chechnya. Thinking that Russia would never invade an independent Georgia or Ukraine is very naive, to say the least. If you want a "neutral" country, take a look at Belarus. A neutral country in Russia's eyes only has connections with Russia, not with the West. They make it very clear which countries they want "under the influence sphere of Russia". Ukrainians want a sovereign democratic country, and they are willing to pay a very high price for that.

cpursley 2y ago
Ukraine will no longer be democratic come May 21st, unfortunately. https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/05/16/volodymyr-zelenskys-presidential-term-expires-on-may-20th https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/05/16/volodymyr-zelen...
- dralley 2y ago
  This is a nonsense statement. Every poll performed on Ukrainians shows that a clear majority doesn't want elections right now, and Ukrainian law permits this during wartime. The logistical challenges are insurmountable particularly when one things about local elections. People are displaced all across the country and to other countries, soldiers that are fighting on the front lines cannot just rotate simply to be able to cast their votes without creating unnecessary chaos and risks, there's the legitimate threat of bomb attacks on polling places. The UK didn't hold elections during WWII despite being vastly more secure on their island than Ukrainians are.
  - cpursley 2y ago
    Some of us don’t believe in fair-weather democracy. If they can run a poll, they can run an election. Ukrainians have the right to decide their own future, don’t you think? Or perhaps some are afraid that they might vote “wrong”?
    - dralley 2y ago
      A 30 second conversation with any Ukrainian living in Ukraine right now would clear this confusion up for you. Not getting people needlessly killed is awfully high up on the priority list. If you think Russia is above bombing polling places, you'd be wrong.
      - cpursley 2y ago
        The Ukrainian stamps in my passport suggest I’ve spent more than 30 seconds talking with them…
        koonsolo 2y ago
        Your comment suggests this was some time ago, since traveling to Ukraine after the invasion doesn't seem to be something most people would do. I have plenty of Ukrainian colleagues, both still in and outside of Ukraine. Opinions differ a lot. There is only this truth: 1. Ukraine is at war 2. Martial Law helps a country at war It's logical that governments take decisions that some people don't like. Martial Law is there to take quick, hard and possibly unpopular decisions. Ukraine as a country is trying to survive right now. Their martial law doesn't even allow elections!
        cpursley 2y ago
        Call me crazy, but I believe the Ukrainians themselves should get to make the hard decisions involving their lives and future.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        koonsolo 2y ago
        True, they are free to decide not to hold elections during martial law. Even the opposition doesn't want it.
- koonsolo 2y ago
  Then I have "good" news for you: Ukraine is at war and so doesn't have to, and isn't even allowed to hold elections. Neither did UK during WW2, so it's not that uncommon. "Scholars have stated that the Ukrainian constitution does not allow to hold national elections while martial law is in effect." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Ukraine
  - cpursley 2y ago
    It’s also in the Russian constitution that Putin basically gets to be president for life. Guess that makes it okay…
    - koonsolo 2y ago
      A democratic institution making laws is very different than an undemocratic institution making laws. Are you suggesting Ukraine wasn't democratic when that law was made? And like stated somewhere else, UK did the same thing during WW2. So it's not that uncommon.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - cpursley 2y ago
        Do you believe that the current Ukrainian government is a democratic institution up to Western standards?
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
Ray20 2y ago
>Ukrainians want a sovereign democratic country, and they are willing to pay a very high price for that. Doesn't seemed to be true, considering Ban for men's leaving country, forcefull conscription and cancelled elections
- koonsolo 2y ago
  Any country at war does that. UK cancelled elections during WW2, look it up.
  - Ray20 2y ago
    So what? This doesn't invalidate my argument.

cpursley 2y ago

Ukraine will no longer be democratic come May 21st, unfortunately. https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/05/16/volodymyr-zelenskys-presidential-term-expires-on-may-20th https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/05/16/volodymyr-zelen...

dralley 2y ago
This is a nonsense statement. Every poll performed on Ukrainians shows that a clear majority doesn't want elections right now, and Ukrainian law permits this during wartime. The logistical challenges are insurmountable particularly when one things about local elections. People are displaced all across the country and to other countries, soldiers that are fighting on the front lines cannot just rotate simply to be able to cast their votes without creating unnecessary chaos and risks, there's the legitimate threat of bomb attacks on polling places. The UK didn't hold elections during WWII despite being vastly more secure on their island than Ukrainians are.
- cpursley 2y ago
  Some of us don’t believe in fair-weather democracy. If they can run a poll, they can run an election. Ukrainians have the right to decide their own future, don’t you think? Or perhaps some are afraid that they might vote “wrong”?
  - dralley 2y ago
    A 30 second conversation with any Ukrainian living in Ukraine right now would clear this confusion up for you. Not getting people needlessly killed is awfully high up on the priority list. If you think Russia is above bombing polling places, you'd be wrong.
    - cpursley 2y ago
      The Ukrainian stamps in my passport suggest I’ve spent more than 30 seconds talking with them…
      - koonsolo 2y ago
        Your comment suggests this was some time ago, since traveling to Ukraine after the invasion doesn't seem to be something most people would do. I have plenty of Ukrainian colleagues, both still in and outside of Ukraine. Opinions differ a lot. There is only this truth: 1. Ukraine is at war 2. Martial Law helps a country at war It's logical that governments take decisions that some people don't like. Martial Law is there to take quick, hard and possibly unpopular decisions. Ukraine as a country is trying to survive right now. Their martial law doesn't even allow elections!
        cpursley 2y ago
        Call me crazy, but I believe the Ukrainians themselves should get to make the hard decisions involving their lives and future.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        koonsolo 2y ago
        True, they are free to decide not to hold elections during martial law. Even the opposition doesn't want it.
koonsolo 2y ago
Then I have "good" news for you: Ukraine is at war and so doesn't have to, and isn't even allowed to hold elections. Neither did UK during WW2, so it's not that uncommon. "Scholars have stated that the Ukrainian constitution does not allow to hold national elections while martial law is in effect." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Ukraine
- cpursley 2y ago
  It’s also in the Russian constitution that Putin basically gets to be president for life. Guess that makes it okay…
  - koonsolo 2y ago
    A democratic institution making laws is very different than an undemocratic institution making laws. Are you suggesting Ukraine wasn't democratic when that law was made? And like stated somewhere else, UK did the same thing during WW2. So it's not that uncommon.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - cpursley 2y ago
      Do you believe that the current Ukrainian government is a democratic institution up to Western standards?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]

Ray20 2y ago

>Ukrainians want a sovereign democratic country, and they are willing to pay a very high price for that. Doesn't seemed to be true, considering Ban for men's leaving country, forcefull conscription and cancelled elections

koonsolo 2y ago
Any country at war does that. UK cancelled elections during WW2, look it up.
- Ray20 2y ago
  So what? This doesn't invalidate my argument.