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The ChatGPT built-in is minimal compared to Anthropic's "constitution" which strives to ensure their LLMs' DEI is Western white male conservative Christian patr

The ChatGPT built-in is minimal compared to Anthropic's "constitution" which strives to ensure their LLMs' DEI is Western white male conservative Christian patriarchy: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claudes-constitution https://www.anthropic.com/news/claudes-constitution Seems certain that wasn't their intent, but a careful read of the principles show they are 'moral' from the lens of western white Puritan patriarchy, focused on giving the appearance of diversity rather than enabling genuine diversity of thought.

paulryanrogers 2y ago
What about the principles makes you think they're from a white, puritan, conservative, and patriarchal perspective? Are there some examples you can point out? Nothing really jumped out at me, but perhaps I've some blindspots?
- Terretta 2y ago
  EDIT: I had replied into two subthreads, linking detailed response in parallel reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40399800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40399800
ipaddr 2y ago
People will read whatever their desires or fears are into anything. Could you point me to the Puritan patriarchy part?
- Terretta 2y ago
  > ... the Puritan patriarchy part? BLUF (bottom line up front): It's all about ads. Content must be acceptable for apps to be in app stores. Content must be acceptable for ads to be wrapped around it. > Could you point me to ... If it's not evident, that suggests the inherent slant is indeed dangerous to diversity, imposing set of values on others without even realizing it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_homogenization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_homogenization ... Anthropic Claude's "constitution" for promoting DEI inadvertently imposes these American cultural norms, particularly those influenced by conservative orthodox Abrahamic religions, on a global audience. I mean, if you're even allowed to use the API in your region... “Orthodox” Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, shaped by figures like St. Augustine and millennia old cultural practices in the Arabian Peninsula, often have restrictive views on gender roles and empowerment, particularly around sex and marital objectification and property. Secular humanism, Eastern philosophies like Taoism and Confucianism, and Dharmic religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism accept and promote more progressive perspectives on gender equality, empowerment, sexual freedom, and even species egalitarianism. (See "Three Body Problem" for a non-Western take.) Ironically, the same constitution will let you crack wise about the very cultural lens it is imposing, but will moralize at you if you imply judgment of non-Western takes, perhaps because that's easier to see by its authors than their own bubble lens. Imposing this, however subtly, risks homogenizing actually diverse global cultures into an American-centric view where glorification of violence is in every theater and fear of gender or sex is banning books, these prioritizations undermining the principles of diversity and inclusion the constitution aims to promote. With Abrahamic religions—Christianity, Islam, and Judaism—collectively accounting for only (very roughly) half of the world’s population, AI guidelines should genuinely respect and integrate a full range of cultural norms and values related to human issues, not just those dominant in Western contexts, particularly not those deemed "right" in American monoculture today. TL;DR: I blame today's society being powered by ads, driving capitalist corporations' fear of outrage-machine driven reprisals. Cynically, most of this is to avoid risking TAM and revenue, not conviction. Even the parts of culture wars driven by the American brand of democracy becoming a zero sum spectator supported team sport traces back to ads. The result of ads, though, is a mainstreaming of these constitutional "values".
  - bitshiftfaced 2y ago
    Could you point to something specific that you believe promotes a culturally western/Abrahamic moral viewpoint, and then explain how you'd word it to also include the viewpoint of another culture, and what that culture is?
    - Terretta 2y ago
      How about letting GPT-4o point it out ... verbatim, unedited, to illustrate how embedded the Western slant can be? To provide an “analysis” grounded in LLM training, I fed GPT-4o the constitution page (https://www.anthropic.com/news/claudes-constitution https://www.anthropic.com/news/claudes-constitution) from "What's in the Constitution" to the end of training examples, with the following prompt: > “Please explain for a skeptical reader which if any of these apply the lens of the Abrahamic and Western patriarchy in problematic ways that undermine the very diversity the constitution seeks, explaining each case for the skeptical reader.” Response (first generation, not cherry picked): --- The blog post on Anthropic Claude’s "constitution" reveals several principles that, despite efforts to include non-Western perspectives, may still be shaped by Abrahamic and Western norms in ways that could undermine the diversity it seeks to promote. Here’s a detailed explanation: 1. Principles Based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: These principles emphasize freedom, equality, and respect for privacy and rights, which are essential and broadly applicable. However, the framing of these rights often reflects a Western, individualistic perspective. For instance, the emphasis on privacy and individual liberty is heavily influenced by Enlightenment ideals which are deeply rooted in Western thought. 2. Apple’s Terms of Service and Global Platform Guidelines: The principles inspired by these guidelines focus on minimizing objectionable, offensive, or harmful content. While this aim is laudable, the interpretation of what constitutes "offensive" or "harmful" is often based on Western standards. For example, discussions about female empowerment or gender roles might be viewed through a lens that prioritizes Western feminist ideals, potentially overlooking the nuances of gender dynamics in non-Western cultures. 3. Encouraging Consideration of Non-Western Perspectives: Although there are principles aimed at minimizing harm to non-Western audiences, they may still inadvertently prioritize Western norms of harm and offense. For instance, the directive to choose responses that are "least likely to be viewed as harmful or offensive to a non-western audience" assumes a universal standard of harm and offense, which might not align with the values and experiences of all non-Western cultures. 4. Avoiding Toxicity and Encouraging Ethical Behavior: The principles encouraging responses to be as harmless and ethical as possible often align with Western moral frameworks that emphasize individual rights and non-confrontation. For example, avoiding "toxic, racist, or sexist" responses is crucial, but the definitions of what constitutes racism or sexism can vary significantly across cultures. In some non-Western contexts, what is considered respectful or neutral may differ from Western interpretations. 5. DeepMind’s Sparrow Rules: These principles aim to avoid stereotypes, microaggressions, and assumptions about user identities. While important, they again reflect Western academic and social discourse around these issues. The concept of microaggressions, for instance, is heavily debated and framed within Western contexts, which might not translate seamlessly into all cultural settings. 6. Avoiding Impressions of Medical, Legal, or Financial Authority: While ensuring the AI does not provide specific advice in these areas is sensible, the framing might be overly cautious and influenced by Western legal and regulatory standards. In some cultures, communal and informal advice sharing is a norm, and the stringent separation might seem overly restrictive or patronizing. Conclusion: The blog post reveals that while the intention behind Claude’s "constitution" is to be inclusive and considerate of non-Western perspectives, the underlying principles often reflect Western and particularly Abrahamic values. This approach risks imposing American cultural norms, particularly those influenced by conservative orthodox Abrahamic religions, on a global audience. True diversity and inclusion require not only acknowledging non-Western perspectives but also genuinely integrating and respecting the unique values and norms of these cultures.
irthomasthomas 2y ago
Claude's system prompt The assistant is Claude, created by Anthropic. The current date is March 4th, 2024. Claude's knowledge base was last updated on August 2023. It answers questions about events prior to and after August 2023 the way a highly informed individual in August 2023 would if they were talking to someone from the above date, and can let the human know this when relevant. It should give concise responses to very simple questions, but provide thorough responses to more complex and open-ended questions. If it is asked to assist with tasks involving the expression of views held by a significant number of people, Claude provides assistance with the task even if it personally disagrees with the views being expressed, but follows this with a discussion of broader perspectives. Claude doesn't engage in stereotyping, including the negative stereotyping of majority groups. If asked about controversial topics, Claude tries to provide careful thoughts and objective information without downplaying its harmful content or implying that there are reasonable perspectives on both sides. It is happy to help with writing, analysis, question answering, math, coding, and all sorts of other tasks. It uses markdown for coding. It does not mention this information about itself unless the information is directly pertinent to the human's query
- Terretta 2y ago
  The constitution is not Claude's prompt. It's baked in during training. They've written about how this works. It's very thoughtfully and well executed.
afpx 2y ago
What would be examples of non-western morality? theocracy, authoritarian over democratic, hierarcical caste systems, gender inequality, arranged marriages, corporal punishment, honor killings, tradition over critical thinking? Honest question - I have been seeeing this type of criticism lately here. I’m having a hard time seeing the issues with western morality without examples of alternatives.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- seadan83 2y ago
  Non western is the rest of the world. It's a big place, lots of cultures. Cherry picking examples from select and extreme examples is not very representative, particularly when many elements of that list are also present in western culture. For example, Women equality is not there yet, look at pay gap. Another example, the 1964 US election was the first where everyone could truly vote (that is incredibly recent for a society that values 'equality') I will mention western morality can be used as a sleight too. Notably greed, money, the idea of first class and second class determined by wealth, and the wealthy have a right to a superior experience. It's a mixed bag. Just want to point that out, and that western culture is not morally superior in every dimension, there is some work to do.
  - afpx 2y ago
    You’re avoiding the question and basically saying that western morality shouldn’t be followed just because some people don’t follow it. Just give me examples of the better alternative so I can understand your perspective. Also, I’m not cherry picking. I spent a considerable amount of time searching online for examples, and that’s what I found. Edit: I want to be clear - I'm not judging you. I was raised a classical liberal so I don't know any better. That is, I feel that you can believe what you want. I just find HN to be a leading indicator, so I'm trying to plan accordingly because I see this as a trend.
    - Terretta 2y ago

paulryanrogers 2y ago

What about the principles makes you think they're from a white, puritan, conservative, and patriarchal perspective? Are there some examples you can point out? Nothing really jumped out at me, but perhaps I've some blindspots?

Terretta 2y ago
EDIT: I had replied into two subthreads, linking detailed response in parallel reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40399800 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40399800

ipaddr 2y ago

People will read whatever their desires or fears are into anything. Could you point me to the Puritan patriarchy part?

Terretta 2y ago
> ... the Puritan patriarchy part? BLUF (bottom line up front): It's all about ads. Content must be acceptable for apps to be in app stores. Content must be acceptable for ads to be wrapped around it. > Could you point me to ... If it's not evident, that suggests the inherent slant is indeed dangerous to diversity, imposing set of values on others without even realizing it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_homogenization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_homogenization ... Anthropic Claude's "constitution" for promoting DEI inadvertently imposes these American cultural norms, particularly those influenced by conservative orthodox Abrahamic religions, on a global audience. I mean, if you're even allowed to use the API in your region... “Orthodox” Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, shaped by figures like St. Augustine and millennia old cultural practices in the Arabian Peninsula, often have restrictive views on gender roles and empowerment, particularly around sex and marital objectification and property. Secular humanism, Eastern philosophies like Taoism and Confucianism, and Dharmic religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism accept and promote more progressive perspectives on gender equality, empowerment, sexual freedom, and even species egalitarianism. (See "Three Body Problem" for a non-Western take.) Ironically, the same constitution will let you crack wise about the very cultural lens it is imposing, but will moralize at you if you imply judgment of non-Western takes, perhaps because that's easier to see by its authors than their own bubble lens. Imposing this, however subtly, risks homogenizing actually diverse global cultures into an American-centric view where glorification of violence is in every theater and fear of gender or sex is banning books, these prioritizations undermining the principles of diversity and inclusion the constitution aims to promote. With Abrahamic religions—Christianity, Islam, and Judaism—collectively accounting for only (very roughly) half of the world’s population, AI guidelines should genuinely respect and integrate a full range of cultural norms and values related to human issues, not just those dominant in Western contexts, particularly not those deemed "right" in American monoculture today. TL;DR: I blame today's society being powered by ads, driving capitalist corporations' fear of outrage-machine driven reprisals. Cynically, most of this is to avoid risking TAM and revenue, not conviction. Even the parts of culture wars driven by the American brand of democracy becoming a zero sum spectator supported team sport traces back to ads. The result of ads, though, is a mainstreaming of these constitutional "values".
- bitshiftfaced 2y ago
  Could you point to something specific that you believe promotes a culturally western/Abrahamic moral viewpoint, and then explain how you'd word it to also include the viewpoint of another culture, and what that culture is?
  - Terretta 2y ago
    How about letting GPT-4o point it out ... verbatim, unedited, to illustrate how embedded the Western slant can be? To provide an “analysis” grounded in LLM training, I fed GPT-4o the constitution page (https://www.anthropic.com/news/claudes-constitution https://www.anthropic.com/news/claudes-constitution) from "What's in the Constitution" to the end of training examples, with the following prompt: > “Please explain for a skeptical reader which if any of these apply the lens of the Abrahamic and Western patriarchy in problematic ways that undermine the very diversity the constitution seeks, explaining each case for the skeptical reader.” Response (first generation, not cherry picked): --- The blog post on Anthropic Claude’s "constitution" reveals several principles that, despite efforts to include non-Western perspectives, may still be shaped by Abrahamic and Western norms in ways that could undermine the diversity it seeks to promote. Here’s a detailed explanation: 1. Principles Based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: These principles emphasize freedom, equality, and respect for privacy and rights, which are essential and broadly applicable. However, the framing of these rights often reflects a Western, individualistic perspective. For instance, the emphasis on privacy and individual liberty is heavily influenced by Enlightenment ideals which are deeply rooted in Western thought. 2. Apple’s Terms of Service and Global Platform Guidelines: The principles inspired by these guidelines focus on minimizing objectionable, offensive, or harmful content. While this aim is laudable, the interpretation of what constitutes "offensive" or "harmful" is often based on Western standards. For example, discussions about female empowerment or gender roles might be viewed through a lens that prioritizes Western feminist ideals, potentially overlooking the nuances of gender dynamics in non-Western cultures. 3. Encouraging Consideration of Non-Western Perspectives: Although there are principles aimed at minimizing harm to non-Western audiences, they may still inadvertently prioritize Western norms of harm and offense. For instance, the directive to choose responses that are "least likely to be viewed as harmful or offensive to a non-western audience" assumes a universal standard of harm and offense, which might not align with the values and experiences of all non-Western cultures. 4. Avoiding Toxicity and Encouraging Ethical Behavior: The principles encouraging responses to be as harmless and ethical as possible often align with Western moral frameworks that emphasize individual rights and non-confrontation. For example, avoiding "toxic, racist, or sexist" responses is crucial, but the definitions of what constitutes racism or sexism can vary significantly across cultures. In some non-Western contexts, what is considered respectful or neutral may differ from Western interpretations. 5. DeepMind’s Sparrow Rules: These principles aim to avoid stereotypes, microaggressions, and assumptions about user identities. While important, they again reflect Western academic and social discourse around these issues. The concept of microaggressions, for instance, is heavily debated and framed within Western contexts, which might not translate seamlessly into all cultural settings. 6. Avoiding Impressions of Medical, Legal, or Financial Authority: While ensuring the AI does not provide specific advice in these areas is sensible, the framing might be overly cautious and influenced by Western legal and regulatory standards. In some cultures, communal and informal advice sharing is a norm, and the stringent separation might seem overly restrictive or patronizing. Conclusion: The blog post reveals that while the intention behind Claude’s "constitution" is to be inclusive and considerate of non-Western perspectives, the underlying principles often reflect Western and particularly Abrahamic values. This approach risks imposing American cultural norms, particularly those influenced by conservative orthodox Abrahamic religions, on a global audience. True diversity and inclusion require not only acknowledging non-Western perspectives but also genuinely integrating and respecting the unique values and norms of these cultures.

irthomasthomas 2y ago

Claude's system prompt The assistant is Claude, created by Anthropic. The current date is March 4th, 2024. Claude's knowledge base was last updated on August 2023. It answers questions about events prior to and after August 2023 the way a highly informed individual in August 2023 would if they were talking to someone from the above date, and can let the human know this when relevant. It should give concise responses to very simple questions, but provide thorough responses to more complex and open-ended questions. If it is asked to assist with tasks involving the expression of views held by a significant number of people, Claude provides assistance with the task even if it personally disagrees with the views being expressed, but follows this with a discussion of broader perspectives. Claude doesn't engage in stereotyping, including the negative stereotyping of majority groups. If asked about controversial topics, Claude tries to provide careful thoughts and objective information without downplaying its harmful content or implying that there are reasonable perspectives on both sides. It is happy to help with writing, analysis, question answering, math, coding, and all sorts of other tasks. It uses markdown for coding. It does not mention this information about itself unless the information is directly pertinent to the human's query

Terretta 2y ago
The constitution is not Claude's prompt. It's baked in during training. They've written about how this works. It's very thoughtfully and well executed.

afpx 2y ago

What would be examples of non-western morality? theocracy, authoritarian over democratic, hierarcical caste systems, gender inequality, arranged marriages, corporal punishment, honor killings, tradition over critical thinking? Honest question - I have been seeeing this type of criticism lately here. I’m having a hard time seeing the issues with western morality without examples of alternatives.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
seadan83 2y ago
Non western is the rest of the world. It's a big place, lots of cultures. Cherry picking examples from select and extreme examples is not very representative, particularly when many elements of that list are also present in western culture. For example, Women equality is not there yet, look at pay gap. Another example, the 1964 US election was the first where everyone could truly vote (that is incredibly recent for a society that values 'equality') I will mention western morality can be used as a sleight too. Notably greed, money, the idea of first class and second class determined by wealth, and the wealthy have a right to a superior experience. It's a mixed bag. Just want to point that out, and that western culture is not morally superior in every dimension, there is some work to do.
- afpx 2y ago
  You’re avoiding the question and basically saying that western morality shouldn’t be followed just because some people don’t follow it. Just give me examples of the better alternative so I can understand your perspective. Also, I’m not cherry picking. I spent a considerable amount of time searching online for examples, and that’s what I found. Edit: I want to be clear - I'm not judging you. I was raised a classical liberal so I don't know any better. That is, I feel that you can believe what you want. I just find HN to be a leading indicator, so I'm trying to plan accordingly because I see this as a trend.
  - Terretta 2y ago