4 ms·

I think the op's point was completely ignored: Different people progress at different rates. When you're in high school, you have roughly the same amount of sch

by csallen 14y ago

I think the op's point was completely ignored: Different people progress at different rates. When you're in high school, you have roughly the same amount of schooling experience as your peers. That doesn't change the fact that you may be taking advanced classes while they take remedial ones. It's easy to accuse the op of arrogance. And who knows, maybe he is arrogant. But in the end, that's just an ad hominem and is insufficient for dismissing his point, which I believe is a legitimate one.

dasil003 14y ago
Sure there is a valid point in there, but I don't think it's one worth pursuing. If you make a fuss out of it then you're not really giving a good impression; you come off as a difficult person who is focused on the wrong things: in this case, the written requirements rather than end goal of judging if you are right for the company. No matter how demonstrably smart and skilled this kid is, I would walk out of the interview with the impression that all his brilliance is going to be misdirected and he'll be out in the weeds have the time because he doesn't have common sense about what's important. Instead, just do like everyone else is saying and apply. If they reject you based on HR filtering then there's a good likelihood the culture would be bad for you in the long run anyway, if not then you put your best foot forward and if you're as good as you think you'll be snapped up before long.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  It's amazing the amount of assumptions and prejudices being leveraged due to the perceived young age of the person inquiring. Especially given that there is nothing to indicate that he was making a fuss of it more than asking on StackOverflow. Shockingly, some do progress at a faster rate than others. I turned in a large project that I wrote during my senior year of high school and received extremely high marks on it for my senior year project in a high(er) level CS course in University. I got positive remarks on architechtural decisions and things that come via experience and having experience with code. I've been doing it since I was in middle school, I finished a project for my first client before I started my senior year of high school. I still kick myself for not doing a partnership with the fellow the following summer; the idea he wanted me to implement became rather popular a few years ago. Some people progress faster than others. It doesn't mean they're necessarily arrogant or full of themselves. It means that ageism and the notion that "more experience = more better" is silly. There is code I see churned out by developers that have resumes twice as long as mine that absolutely terrify me.
  - dasil003 14y ago
    What does this have to do with my comment? My point was there is nothing to be gained by calling attention to and arguing about job requirements.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      How is there not? There's an entire discussion going on about it here, and I don't think the conclusion to be drawn from it anywhere is that it's an entire waste of time. It's just another symptom of how it can be difficult to hire well and how miserably misplaced some efforts are to improve it by cheap metrics that can be both positively and negatively misleading.
      - dasil003 14y ago
        I meant for the job applicant, not in general discussion.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
I think the OP missed the bigger point, which is that knowledge comes at various speeds based on an individuals ability to absorb learning, but experience comes from hours invested and the variety of situations experienced. The OP seems to have conflated the concept that someone asking for a certain number of years of experience are looking for a particular subject matter knowledge level, when they are really looking for someone who has experienced more variations. When people talk about "What is the value of a college degree? I can already write code with the best of them!" they conflate what they know as equivalent with experiencing different things. Good college programs go through a lot of different scenarios quickly and that is how they substitute for some experience. But any trades person will tell you that learning the trade is both knowledge and experience. The former tells you how the latter tells why and with luck gives you the wisdom to choose the best "how" out of a number of choices.
- ctl 14y ago
  Your argument is unconvincing. It takes certain skills to be an effective "intermediate software developer." (Here I use the word skills very generically, so in particular it includes the things that you call experience.) If a hiring manager has found that many people have those skills after 3 years of work, it is probably true that some people have those skills after 2 years of work. Therefore: the OP might have the skills to be effective at the job he wants. So for God's sake can somebody just give a good-faith answer to his question? The amount of condescension he's getting is ridiculous.
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    "So for God's sake can somebody just give a good-faith answer to his question?" I think the point of the response was the question cannot be answered. Specifically he writes: "How can I overcome the assumption that I do not have the skills required because I do not have the 'right' number of years of experience?" The answer is "You cannot, it is an assumption by someone you don't know." Since he is not asking "Should I ask a friend of mine that works at this place and knows my skills put in my resume even though I don't have the 'right' number of years of experience?" We could all say "Absolutely." Referrala are great because the knowledge is first person and in depth. Our authored followed with: "Are skills directly proportional to years of experience?" And the answer to that is "Yes." Is the constant the same for everyone? No. But generally some hiring manager has put out this number because he's found folks who have that land in his range of what he wants for this job. But its easily shown that someone with some experience has some sigma greater skill at the job that someone with zero experience, so it seems pointless to simply say "Yes" here.
kwekly 14y ago
This is already built into the requirement: 3 to 7 years. After three years he/she is open to apply for what might take others 7.
louischatriot 14y ago
I totally agree: people do capitalize on experience at different speeds. That said, I think the op fails to put himself into the company's shoes. As one comment said, false positives hurt a lot, so these kinds of company will try to avoid them at all costs, even if it means weeding out very good candidates. Management consulting firms do that a lot for example.

by csallen 14y ago

dasil003 14y ago

Sure there is a valid point in there, but I don't think it's one worth pursuing. If you make a fuss out of it then you're not really giving a good impression; you come off as a difficult person who is focused on the wrong things: in this case, the written requirements rather than end goal of judging if you are right for the company. No matter how demonstrably smart and skilled this kid is, I would walk out of the interview with the impression that all his brilliance is going to be misdirected and he'll be out in the weeds have the time because he doesn't have common sense about what's important. Instead, just do like everyone else is saying and apply. If they reject you based on HR filtering then there's a good likelihood the culture would be bad for you in the long run anyway, if not then you put your best foot forward and if you're as good as you think you'll be snapped up before long.

drivebyacct2 14y ago
It's amazing the amount of assumptions and prejudices being leveraged due to the perceived young age of the person inquiring. Especially given that there is nothing to indicate that he was making a fuss of it more than asking on StackOverflow. Shockingly, some do progress at a faster rate than others. I turned in a large project that I wrote during my senior year of high school and received extremely high marks on it for my senior year project in a high(er) level CS course in University. I got positive remarks on architechtural decisions and things that come via experience and having experience with code. I've been doing it since I was in middle school, I finished a project for my first client before I started my senior year of high school. I still kick myself for not doing a partnership with the fellow the following summer; the idea he wanted me to implement became rather popular a few years ago. Some people progress faster than others. It doesn't mean they're necessarily arrogant or full of themselves. It means that ageism and the notion that "more experience = more better" is silly. There is code I see churned out by developers that have resumes twice as long as mine that absolutely terrify me.
- dasil003 14y ago
  What does this have to do with my comment? My point was there is nothing to be gained by calling attention to and arguing about job requirements.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    How is there not? There's an entire discussion going on about it here, and I don't think the conclusion to be drawn from it anywhere is that it's an entire waste of time. It's just another symptom of how it can be difficult to hire well and how miserably misplaced some efforts are to improve it by cheap metrics that can be both positively and negatively misleading.
    - dasil003 14y ago
      I meant for the job applicant, not in general discussion.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

I think the OP missed the bigger point, which is that knowledge comes at various speeds based on an individuals ability to absorb learning, but experience comes from hours invested and the variety of situations experienced. The OP seems to have conflated the concept that someone asking for a certain number of years of experience are looking for a particular subject matter knowledge level, when they are really looking for someone who has experienced more variations. When people talk about "What is the value of a college degree? I can already write code with the best of them!" they conflate what they know as equivalent with experiencing different things. Good college programs go through a lot of different scenarios quickly and that is how they substitute for some experience. But any trades person will tell you that learning the trade is both knowledge and experience. The former tells you how the latter tells why and with luck gives you the wisdom to choose the best "how" out of a number of choices.

ctl 14y ago
Your argument is unconvincing. It takes certain skills to be an effective "intermediate software developer." (Here I use the word skills very generically, so in particular it includes the things that you call experience.) If a hiring manager has found that many people have those skills after 3 years of work, it is probably true that some people have those skills after 2 years of work. Therefore: the OP might have the skills to be effective at the job he wants. So for God's sake can somebody just give a good-faith answer to his question? The amount of condescension he's getting is ridiculous.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  "So for God's sake can somebody just give a good-faith answer to his question?" I think the point of the response was the question cannot be answered. Specifically he writes: "How can I overcome the assumption that I do not have the skills required because I do not have the 'right' number of years of experience?" The answer is "You cannot, it is an assumption by someone you don't know." Since he is not asking "Should I ask a friend of mine that works at this place and knows my skills put in my resume even though I don't have the 'right' number of years of experience?" We could all say "Absolutely." Referrala are great because the knowledge is first person and in depth. Our authored followed with: "Are skills directly proportional to years of experience?" And the answer to that is "Yes." Is the constant the same for everyone? No. But generally some hiring manager has put out this number because he's found folks who have that land in his range of what he wants for this job. But its easily shown that someone with some experience has some sigma greater skill at the job that someone with zero experience, so it seems pointless to simply say "Yes" here.

kwekly 14y ago

This is already built into the requirement: 3 to 7 years. After three years he/she is open to apply for what might take others 7.

louischatriot 14y ago

I totally agree: people do capitalize on experience at different speeds. That said, I think the op fails to put himself into the company's shoes. As one comment said, false positives hurt a lot, so these kinds of company will try to avoid them at all costs, even if it means weeding out very good candidates. Management consulting firms do that a lot for example.