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> You don't seem to argue with the statement that if Russia were to retreat an ethnic cleansing would follow. Too bad you also seem to find it an acceptable sol
by wumeow 2y ago
> You don't seem to argue with the statement that if Russia were to retreat an ethnic cleansing would follow. Too bad you also seem to find it an acceptable solution.
Booting out people who have illegally invaded and occupied your land is not ethnic cleansing.
> Which means that people whose ancestors have lived there for hundreds of years don't qualify as indigenous.
Yes, which applies equally to Russians and non-Russians, so you can't complain the law is some slight against Russians.
> It didn't start with the invasion. It didn't even start in 2014. In 1991 George Bush Sr. was talking in Kiev about "suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred"[0].
The full quote is "Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred." He was referring to the wars between ethnic groups in Yugoslavia that occurred as the country broke apart. It was warning Ukraine not to do something similar.
> It's on the order of magnitude fewer people than the Ukraine would deport according to the article. And no, Russia hasn't been moving people there, those who moved moved voluntarily attracted by the climate and the job opportunities -- there is a lot to build in Crimea after 25 years of punishing neglect by the Ukraine.
The exact number of settlers is an estimate, the point is they would need to leave. Your country has been pumping billions of dollars in subsidies into Crimea with the express purpose of attracting mainlanders, among other government-sponsored incentives. It's an explicit goal in occupied Crimea's development plans. No one is being loaded up on train cars and shipped to Crimea, but your government clearly wants Russians to move there and is working to make that happen.
> Mejlis isn't representative of Crimean Tatars and their calls for ethnic cleansing of Russians are repugnant. Here is what a pre-war poll showed: "Support for joining Russia remains very high (86 percent in 2014 and 82 percent in 2019) — and is especially high among ethnic Russians and Ukrainians. A key change since 2014 has been a significant increase in support by Tatars, a Turkic Muslim population that makes up about 12 percent of the Crimean population." [1]
There is a constant torrent of propaganda coming from Moscow directed at well-meaning but gullible Russians. (The survey was conducted by a Russian company and couldn't even use the word "annex" because it's banned. And even if it was correct, support for joining Russia is not a justifiable reason for forced annexation)
> As you said, there is a war going on.
It's an unprovoked invasion and colonization by your country. You can twist yourself into pretzels trying to justify it but that's what it is.
> It's bizarre that the transfer of orphans from the war zone to safety you list as something bad.
This is a disgusting excuse. Its a war zone that your country has created, and it's not about their safety, otherwise they would be transferred back to Ukraine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-...
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/posterchild-russias-removal-ukraine-orphans-says-he-was-coached-threatened-2024-03-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/posterchild-russias-rem...
> That's hardly true. There is a constant torrent of propaganda coming from Kiev directed at well-meaning but gullible Westerners.
It is true: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/04/01/new-crimean-land-law-banning-foreign-ownership-comes-into-force-a73443 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/04/01/new-crimean-land-l...
- protomolecule 2y agoThe whole conversation started with this quotation from the Foreign Policy Magazine[0]: "The extent of what is being contemplated by Ukrainian lawmakers is staggering. According to Tamila Tasheva, Zelensky’s representative in Crimea, if it were liberated tomorrow, at least 200,000 residents of Crimea would face collaboration charges, and another 500,000 to 800,000 residents would face deportation. Refat Chubarov, the chairman of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatars, says that more than 1 million people—more than half the current population—will have to leave “immediately.”" I don't see how anyone responding in good faith could answer to it with "Booting out people who have illegally invaded and occupied your land is not ethnic cleansing". This conversation is over. [0] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/12/18/ukraine-russia-war-civil-rights-freedom-speech-religion/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/12/18/ukraine-russia-war-civi...
- mopsi 2y agoYou cannot expect to invade another country, drive away the local population and replace it with colonizers from your homeland, and expect that when the tide turns and your military is driven away, your colonizers will get to keep the homes and businesses that they had illegally taken over. After WWII, German colonizers had to pack their things and return homes and farms in Poland back to their rightful owners. Russians in Crimea are no different. It's insane to expect a different outcome. And this has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing. The people who choose to move into occupied Crimea, enter and stay in Ukraine illegally.
- racional 2y agoI don't see how anyone can claim in good faith that expelling these people (who settled illegally since 2014 in support of Russia's overall project of aggression against Ukraine) is a form of "ethnic cleansing", as you've been stating. The two situations are entirely different. BTW the numbers are being distorted upwards for some reason. Initially it was 500k-800k which is 20-30 percent of the current population of 2.4M. But then it somehow started getting quoted as 1M (without attribution). Which is still distinctly less than half (rather than "more than half") of 2.4M. Also Tasheva put the number of people likely to be blacklisted at around 10,000; there is no source for the 200k number.