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This thing that can only cry learns to: talk, walk, read, express themselves, formulate opinions, ride a bike, conquer fears, grow etc. They do this all the whi

This thing that can only cry learns to: talk, walk, read, express themselves, formulate opinions, ride a bike, conquer fears, grow etc. They do this all the while looking at you as a hero with nothing but complete and selfless love for you. All your minor faults are irrelevant to them. You are their everything. Yes, it's genetic conditioning, but I have been on this planet 37 years and have never experienced emotion on any scale anywhere approaching what fatherhood has given me. Here's another secret - it's completely different the second time around too! I'm struggling here to find an argument that would help illustrate this to a non-parent and I am failing. I'll leave it at this: I would give up everything I'll ever do from now until death - my entire existence - in exchange for my children's without more than a 30 second thought. That is what parenthood does to you. It's fucking great.

callmevlad 14y ago
As a father of two amazing girls, I feel exactly the same way. Granted I have less/no time to play video games and go to parties, but nothing has ever come even remotely close to motivating me to create things and become a better person than my children.
gcheong 14y ago
"That is what parenthood does to you." No, that is what parenthood has done to you. And I'm glad for you but you don't have to look far to find people for whom the effect was less than positive and if I relate more to those people than to you then I would do well to heed their warnings than your espousing of supposed absolute truth. Seriously why is it that parents want to convince others who don't buy into the whole pronatalist view so much that having kids is always, every time, and in every way, the most positive, ultimate experience any human can have?
- mibbitier 14y ago
  Virgins probably also don't see what the big deal about having sex is. They've probably heard horror stories about it. Being a father/mother is simply the best thing you can do with your life (Unless you hate kids, or are too "grown up").
  - gcheong 14y ago
    Plenty of people decide to choose lives of celibacy both as virgins and non-virgins and have no regrets. Like I said, there are plenty of parents who would say it is not. Why should I take what you say as truth over them?
    - mibbitier 14y ago
      You shouldn't. If you don't feel the overwhelming need to have children, you probably shouldn't. I wanted to have children from when I was about 10. I knew that it would be the most important thing I was to do with my life, and that's how it's turned out. FWIW I don't know a single parent who would say that it's not absolutely awesome to be a parent. Maybe I don't know many bad parents...
      - run4yourlives 14y ago
        There are a few people that regret being parents. The funny thing is that if you talk to them you'll find that they've become parents because they though it's something the should do, and not something they wanted to do.
        gcheong 14y ago
        Yes, exactly - and where did this idea that they should have kids come from? What I'm saying is that people need a balanced perspective when deciding and all too often it is the "everyone should have kids" voice that is only heard and anyone that states anything to the contrary is summarily dismissed or berated. That is changing, albeit slowly but I will also be the first to say that at the end of the day if decide you want kids then go for it.
        run4yourlives 14y ago
        I'm not sure where you are hearing the "everyone should have kids" refrain in 2012. Perhaps this is from your parents or friends? I'd submit too that perhaps a lot of it is self imposed, as witnessed by your comments in this thread that immediately assumed more than one person was of the opinion that we are somehow insinuating you are a lesser person from not having kids. Outside of your own family, there's not a heck of a lot of pressure to have kids these days. Your family though is - respectfully - your problem. :-)
- run4yourlives 14y ago
  >than your espousing of supposed absolute truth. Sorry but it sounds as if you have some personal issues. I'm telling you that being a father is awesome because it is. If I told you that skydiving is awesome, would you comment how I was talking about how skydiving is awesome as if it was some sort of absolute truth? Of course it's my experience. All my opinions are my experiences. If you are already a parent and hate being a parent, wishing for a life without kids (I too, know people like this), then I concede your feelings are valid, and feel sorry that you haven't been able to take the same things I have from this experience. If you are not a parent, you are essentially arguing from a position of ignorance. Because of that, your opinion, while valid, comes with a huge caveat. It would be the same as me as a man trying to provide an opinion about how wonderful pregnancy is. I have had a lot of wonderful experiences in this life. Falling in love, jumping out of a plane, personal achievements of all sorts. None of these experiences compare to fatherhood in any way that I could even being to relate them. Sorry, but that's not something I'm going to keep to myself. I'm not telling you to have kids. I'm not a pusher, and to be quite frank I personally don't give a fuck about how you choose to live your life. I'm telling you that having a child has been the most positive, ultimate human experience I've had. Why should I deny this because you've got your ovaries in a knot?
  - gcheong 14y ago
    I do have a personal issue with people saying kids are absolutely the best thing one can do with one's life or the best experience one can have in one's life and therefore also implying that everyone should have them. So if I mistook your statement as one of unqualified pro-natalism then I apologize. Ovaries in a knot? Lol. I'm a man so society readily accepts, even applauds in some cases, my desire to not have kids though your statement is telling of the vitriol women in our society face who have decided not to have kids.
  - sofal 14y ago
    So the logic is: you wouldn't understand because you're not a parent, but if you are a parent then you're not a good one (i.e "you haven't been able to take the same things I have from this experience").
- mattdeboard 14y ago
  ... "pronatalist"? Really? Sheesh.
  - gcheong 14y ago
    It's true, it's kind of a strange word that I've mainly only seen used in the child-free communities, but is there a better word for the viewpoint that everyone should have kids? "Breeder mentality" just seems too harsh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalism
    - mattdeboard 14y ago
      > a better word for the viewpoint that everyone should have kids I have a good one: "opinion". I have another great one for when someone won't leave you alone and insists that you hold their opinion or there's something wrong with you: "fanatic". See also: "jerk", "creep", "weirdo", "person I avoid". I really don't get these quasi-political categorizations. If someone's being a jerk about their opinion, they're a jerk. Words like "pronatalist" just strike me as unbelievably effete. Like "pronatalists" are this powerful lobby group from whom we all need protection. If someone won't shut up about their opinion and keep trying to push it on you, they're just a jerk, and probably kind of stupid too.
      - gcheong 14y ago
        That's like saying we shouldn't call sexism sexism because its just the opinion of a few men that women are inferior and if they are being jerks about their opinion then they are just being jerks. No, having the word pronatalism calls out the fact that it is just a viewpoint. And it is one shared and promoted by many - often to the detriment of those who think otherwise. Having names for things helps in clarifying what it is we are talking about.
        mattdeboard 14y ago
        I guess what I really want to say is that the world is so divided and polarized, can't we just this one time drop the anti- and pro-whatever and just say that someone disagrees with us and move on?
silverlake 14y ago
> They do this all the while looking at you as a hero Not all people make great parents. I've hated my parents for as long as I can remember. They didn't appear to enjoy being parents either. The daily beatings were really annoying. I'm glad you're happy, but the world isn't a Disney movie.
- run4yourlives 14y ago
  The world is what you make it. I'm sorry for your experiences and I agree that some people in general are just assholes, and some of those assholes are parents. I can guarantee that you as a child you did view them in awe and they were your heroes until you learned that they weren't very nice people. It's difficult to love someone and not have that love returned, but I'm making the assumption that the person receiving this love from their child is open to it. I'm sorry if I offended you, and hope that maybe one day you can break the cycle of hate with a family of your own if you so choose. The world (well, North America at least) needs more good people having kids.

callmevlad 14y ago

As a father of two amazing girls, I feel exactly the same way. Granted I have less/no time to play video games and go to parties, but nothing has ever come even remotely close to motivating me to create things and become a better person than my children.

gcheong 14y ago

"That is what parenthood does to you." No, that is what parenthood has done to you. And I'm glad for you but you don't have to look far to find people for whom the effect was less than positive and if I relate more to those people than to you then I would do well to heed their warnings than your espousing of supposed absolute truth. Seriously why is it that parents want to convince others who don't buy into the whole pronatalist view so much that having kids is always, every time, and in every way, the most positive, ultimate experience any human can have?

mibbitier 14y ago
Virgins probably also don't see what the big deal about having sex is. They've probably heard horror stories about it. Being a father/mother is simply the best thing you can do with your life (Unless you hate kids, or are too "grown up").
- gcheong 14y ago
  Plenty of people decide to choose lives of celibacy both as virgins and non-virgins and have no regrets. Like I said, there are plenty of parents who would say it is not. Why should I take what you say as truth over them?
  - mibbitier 14y ago
    You shouldn't. If you don't feel the overwhelming need to have children, you probably shouldn't. I wanted to have children from when I was about 10. I knew that it would be the most important thing I was to do with my life, and that's how it's turned out. FWIW I don't know a single parent who would say that it's not absolutely awesome to be a parent. Maybe I don't know many bad parents...
    - run4yourlives 14y ago
      There are a few people that regret being parents. The funny thing is that if you talk to them you'll find that they've become parents because they though it's something the should do, and not something they wanted to do.
      - gcheong 14y ago
        Yes, exactly - and where did this idea that they should have kids come from? What I'm saying is that people need a balanced perspective when deciding and all too often it is the "everyone should have kids" voice that is only heard and anyone that states anything to the contrary is summarily dismissed or berated. That is changing, albeit slowly but I will also be the first to say that at the end of the day if decide you want kids then go for it.
        run4yourlives 14y ago
        I'm not sure where you are hearing the "everyone should have kids" refrain in 2012. Perhaps this is from your parents or friends? I'd submit too that perhaps a lot of it is self imposed, as witnessed by your comments in this thread that immediately assumed more than one person was of the opinion that we are somehow insinuating you are a lesser person from not having kids. Outside of your own family, there's not a heck of a lot of pressure to have kids these days. Your family though is - respectfully - your problem. :-)
run4yourlives 14y ago
>than your espousing of supposed absolute truth. Sorry but it sounds as if you have some personal issues. I'm telling you that being a father is awesome because it is. If I told you that skydiving is awesome, would you comment how I was talking about how skydiving is awesome as if it was some sort of absolute truth? Of course it's my experience. All my opinions are my experiences. If you are already a parent and hate being a parent, wishing for a life without kids (I too, know people like this), then I concede your feelings are valid, and feel sorry that you haven't been able to take the same things I have from this experience. If you are not a parent, you are essentially arguing from a position of ignorance. Because of that, your opinion, while valid, comes with a huge caveat. It would be the same as me as a man trying to provide an opinion about how wonderful pregnancy is. I have had a lot of wonderful experiences in this life. Falling in love, jumping out of a plane, personal achievements of all sorts. None of these experiences compare to fatherhood in any way that I could even being to relate them. Sorry, but that's not something I'm going to keep to myself. I'm not telling you to have kids. I'm not a pusher, and to be quite frank I personally don't give a fuck about how you choose to live your life. I'm telling you that having a child has been the most positive, ultimate human experience I've had. Why should I deny this because you've got your ovaries in a knot?
- gcheong 14y ago
  I do have a personal issue with people saying kids are absolutely the best thing one can do with one's life or the best experience one can have in one's life and therefore also implying that everyone should have them. So if I mistook your statement as one of unqualified pro-natalism then I apologize. Ovaries in a knot? Lol. I'm a man so society readily accepts, even applauds in some cases, my desire to not have kids though your statement is telling of the vitriol women in our society face who have decided not to have kids.
- sofal 14y ago
  So the logic is: you wouldn't understand because you're not a parent, but if you are a parent then you're not a good one (i.e "you haven't been able to take the same things I have from this experience").
mattdeboard 14y ago
... "pronatalist"? Really? Sheesh.
- gcheong 14y ago
  It's true, it's kind of a strange word that I've mainly only seen used in the child-free communities, but is there a better word for the viewpoint that everyone should have kids? "Breeder mentality" just seems too harsh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalism
  - mattdeboard 14y ago
    > a better word for the viewpoint that everyone should have kids I have a good one: "opinion". I have another great one for when someone won't leave you alone and insists that you hold their opinion or there's something wrong with you: "fanatic". See also: "jerk", "creep", "weirdo", "person I avoid". I really don't get these quasi-political categorizations. If someone's being a jerk about their opinion, they're a jerk. Words like "pronatalist" just strike me as unbelievably effete. Like "pronatalists" are this powerful lobby group from whom we all need protection. If someone won't shut up about their opinion and keep trying to push it on you, they're just a jerk, and probably kind of stupid too.
    - gcheong 14y ago
      That's like saying we shouldn't call sexism sexism because its just the opinion of a few men that women are inferior and if they are being jerks about their opinion then they are just being jerks. No, having the word pronatalism calls out the fact that it is just a viewpoint. And it is one shared and promoted by many - often to the detriment of those who think otherwise. Having names for things helps in clarifying what it is we are talking about.
      - mattdeboard 14y ago
        I guess what I really want to say is that the world is so divided and polarized, can't we just this one time drop the anti- and pro-whatever and just say that someone disagrees with us and move on?

silverlake 14y ago

> They do this all the while looking at you as a hero Not all people make great parents. I've hated my parents for as long as I can remember. They didn't appear to enjoy being parents either. The daily beatings were really annoying. I'm glad you're happy, but the world isn't a Disney movie.

run4yourlives 14y ago
The world is what you make it. I'm sorry for your experiences and I agree that some people in general are just assholes, and some of those assholes are parents. I can guarantee that you as a child you did view them in awe and they were your heroes until you learned that they weren't very nice people. It's difficult to love someone and not have that love returned, but I'm making the assumption that the person receiving this love from their child is open to it. I'm sorry if I offended you, and hope that maybe one day you can break the cycle of hate with a family of your own if you so choose. The world (well, North America at least) needs more good people having kids.