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> the minimal yearly expenditure to live a more Spartan version of our lifestyle (without compromising on things like food or heating) but with the same home wa

> the minimal yearly expenditure to live a more Spartan version of our lifestyle (without compromising on things like food or heating) but with the same home was a little over $40k. Everything over that for us is just prioritization. The mortgage alone for a house to fit a family of 4 would be close to $40k in many medium-high COL places.

ndriscoll 2y ago
Well yeah but obviously, don't try to live in a HCOL area if you're not going to economically win out. Local electrician apprenticeship programs here advertise ~55k wages at the end of a residential apprenticeship and ~86k for commercial (assuming 40 hrs/week; I don't know whether that's a reasonable assumption). You need a high school diploma or GED, and need to pass an aptitude test to qualify for the commercial apprentice program.
- antisthenes 2y ago
  > Well yeah but obviously, don't try to live in a HCOL area if you're not going to economically win out. Well, clearly the solution is for everyone to work remotely for a high-COL area based company and live in a low COL area. Gee, why didn't everyone think of that. My point being, you still need to be earning roughly 50% more than median to make things work. Your original math seems to point to you lucking out somewhere, e.g. low rate mortgage or being a high-earning in a low-COL area. _______________________________ How long is the path from High School Diploma/GED to being a fully licensed commercial electrician? How many people have full support of their network while earning that license through apprenticeship?
  - ndriscoll 2y ago
    Or work for a L-MCOL based company in a L-MCOL area. For software, I know of at least one local company in my area that pays 185k/year at senior level and 90k for SDE1. I do happen to work for a remote company right now, but software is the more important factor there. I am high earning in a low CoL area now, though that wasn't luck. That was intentional. Of course not everyone can do software, so I pointed to something like electrical work with lower barriers to entry (and which is obviously local). The local program I'm looking at says a residential apprenticeship is 4000 on-the-job hours and commercial is 8000, so 2-4 years assuming 40 hours/week. Same as going to college, except you get paid during that time, starting at 33k and 38k respectively and increasing during the apprenticeship. If you lived with family and kept expenses low, that could easily represent $100k saved when others are graduating from school. Obviously not everyone can be an electrician either, but for example public school teachers here make 60k after 3 years of experience, going up by about 2k with each YOE. I'm sure there are other similar "normal" jobs that people would think of as middle class where it's doable. I don't know how many people have a support network. Certainly we should be shaming parents if they won't help their kids once they turn 18. Especially if the kid is on a responsible path and starting a career, and just wants to save before leaving home. Anyway, point is it's not that unattainable to be a single income household if it's important to you. Obviously it's easy for me, but the stats show it's not that rare: https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/womens-databook/2021/home.htm#table6 https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/womens-databook/2021/home.h... Married, spouse present women overall have a 74.5% labor force participation when they have children 6-17 and 65.4% when they have children under 6. i.e. 25.5% and 34.6% stay at home, respectively. Married, spouse present hispanic women have 36.8% and 47.5% respective homemaker rates. I doubt it's because they're all making 1.5x median. They just place a high priority on family. For some people, staying at home is even the economically optimal arrangement, and they can't afford to have a second income.

ndriscoll 2y ago

Well yeah but obviously, don't try to live in a HCOL area if you're not going to economically win out. Local electrician apprenticeship programs here advertise ~55k wages at the end of a residential apprenticeship and ~86k for commercial (assuming 40 hrs/week; I don't know whether that's a reasonable assumption). You need a high school diploma or GED, and need to pass an aptitude test to qualify for the commercial apprentice program.

antisthenes 2y ago
> Well yeah but obviously, don't try to live in a HCOL area if you're not going to economically win out. Well, clearly the solution is for everyone to work remotely for a high-COL area based company and live in a low COL area. Gee, why didn't everyone think of that. My point being, you still need to be earning roughly 50% more than median to make things work. Your original math seems to point to you lucking out somewhere, e.g. low rate mortgage or being a high-earning in a low-COL area. _______________________________ How long is the path from High School Diploma/GED to being a fully licensed commercial electrician? How many people have full support of their network while earning that license through apprenticeship?
- ndriscoll 2y ago
  Or work for a L-MCOL based company in a L-MCOL area. For software, I know of at least one local company in my area that pays 185k/year at senior level and 90k for SDE1. I do happen to work for a remote company right now, but software is the more important factor there. I am high earning in a low CoL area now, though that wasn't luck. That was intentional. Of course not everyone can do software, so I pointed to something like electrical work with lower barriers to entry (and which is obviously local). The local program I'm looking at says a residential apprenticeship is 4000 on-the-job hours and commercial is 8000, so 2-4 years assuming 40 hours/week. Same as going to college, except you get paid during that time, starting at 33k and 38k respectively and increasing during the apprenticeship. If you lived with family and kept expenses low, that could easily represent $100k saved when others are graduating from school. Obviously not everyone can be an electrician either, but for example public school teachers here make 60k after 3 years of experience, going up by about 2k with each YOE. I'm sure there are other similar "normal" jobs that people would think of as middle class where it's doable. I don't know how many people have a support network. Certainly we should be shaming parents if they won't help their kids once they turn 18. Especially if the kid is on a responsible path and starting a career, and just wants to save before leaving home. Anyway, point is it's not that unattainable to be a single income household if it's important to you. Obviously it's easy for me, but the stats show it's not that rare: https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/womens-databook/2021/home.htm#table6 https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/womens-databook/2021/home.h... Married, spouse present women overall have a 74.5% labor force participation when they have children 6-17 and 65.4% when they have children under 6. i.e. 25.5% and 34.6% stay at home, respectively. Married, spouse present hispanic women have 36.8% and 47.5% respective homemaker rates. I doubt it's because they're all making 1.5x median. They just place a high priority on family. For some people, staying at home is even the economically optimal arrangement, and they can't afford to have a second income.