4 ms·

Why is France still doing imperialism?

lm28469 2y ago
There have been several independence referendum and all ended with a "no", and you're probably not very aware of all the subtleties of the situation, you should read about it before jumping to "imperialism" It reminds me of redditors criticising France for sending their army to Mali but if they researched for not even 5 second they wouldn't have discovered that Mali explicitly asked for France to send troops on their territory....
- trustno2 2y ago
  The referendum was boycotted by the opposition because it was in the middle of Covid-19
  - lm28469 2y ago
    "The" ? What about the other two ? See that's exactly what I'm talking about, people with hard opinions and strong words but a very superficial knowledge of the situation
  - boudin 2y ago
    As a bit of background, this was because the Kanak were mourning the people the lost to Covid at the time of the referndum. The pro independance party asked for the vote to be postponed, which was rejected. The referendum was boycotted. As such the vote is not recognised by a big chunk of the population. This referendum was the last of three that were agreed on following violent events occuring in the 1990s. I think this was a really stupid move from the government, now there will be tensions until a new referendum about independance is organised or insependance is obtained by force. More information here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_New_Caledonian_independence_referendum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_New_Caledonian_independ...
    - fvdessen 2y ago
      I’m not extremely familiar with the issue but it seems the independentists are a de-facto minority, which may also be the actual reason for the boycott of the last referendum, which was already heavily biased in their factor by excluding 20% of the population
      - boudin 2y ago
        The result of the second referendum was not showing independantists as a small minority: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Caledonian_independence_referendum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Caledonian_independ... I'm not sure what the outcome would have been, but having such an important vote happening during an exceptional context like the first 2 years of covid really doesn't seem like a good idea.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    Then I hope they learned an important lesson about boycotting referenda.
- zrn900 2y ago
  Subtlety, shcmutlety, its literally French and half-french colonizers repressing indigenous islanders. What the colonists vote for does not make democracy. > It reminds me of redditors criticising France for sending their army to Mali but if they researched for not even 5 second they wouldn't have discovered that Mali explicitly asked for France to send troops on their territory.... Yeah, the former French-backed governments, 'asking' France to please send troops to Mali. If the enemies of 'the West' do it, its bad and its imperialism. But if 'the West' does it, its magically 'okay'.
  - azmodeus 2y ago
    Where do you draw the line? Do you think only native Americans should have a vote in the USA? Or only Yakutsk in parts of Siberia?
    - zrn900 2y ago
      The one that's happening in New Caledonia is not the kind of genocidal settler-colonialism that happened 100-200 years ago. It is happening here and now. There is no comparison.
  - lm28469 2y ago
    I doubt you even have surface level of the topic, can you explain your view or is it just "west bad"? Is ECOWAS also imperialism? Is it ok to let countries fall to islamists because helping them even if they explicitly ask is "imperialism"?
    - zrn900 2y ago
      > Is ECOWAS also imperialism? Hell yeah it is. Its a French-backed organization. > Is it ok to let countries fall to Islamists because helping them even if they explicitly ask is "imperialism"? Funny how the people who criticize other countries for imperialism when they do it try, to use it for themselves when they need to justify something. Russia helped the UN-recognized government of Syria clean up the Islamists that - ironically - the US was funding and training. They were called imperialists. > I doubt you even have surface level of the topic Calling out doublespeak does not require much. Just like the one above. > "west bad"? Yeah. Precisely that. As of this very moment its still trying to cling on to a world order it set up for exploiting everyone on the planet - including its own people. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/26/blinken-biden-china-policy-speech-00035385 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/26/blinken-biden-china... It murdered ~1 million Iraqis for their oil, it backed head-cutting Islamists for controlling the oil just recently. It even kills its own people when they cant pay for healthcare, and it exports that system to everywhere for profit. But its still blabbering about 'democracy' and 'values'. Just like you.
- dumdumdumdum 2y ago
  Can all countries do this, or is it only limited to Europeans? Ship enough people half-way across the world and hold referendums to assert your position.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    Anyone who can do it, can do it. The strong do what they wish and the weak suffer what they must. This is the way the world really works. Throughout history, countries around the world have taken other territories as their own. How many of them have ever been courteous enough to allow referendums to break off again? It is that courtesy that is remarkable, simply taking territory is normal.
    - dumdumdumdum 2y ago
      > Throughout history, countries around the world have taken other territories as their own. How many of them have ever been courteous enough to allow referendums to break off again? It is that courtesy that is remarkable, simply taking territory is normal. Usually neighboring states, which were peer competitors. And even then it's always been seen as an aberration and not the norm. Modern European imperialism was unique in it's global scope and barbarity. Offering a token referendum after you've wiped out the natives or destroyed a society's cultural, economic, religious nature is not the noble gesture you think it is.
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        The moral difference between conquering your neighbor's territory and going around the world to conquer territory is insignificant. In either case you are taking by force land which other people consider their own; how far your technology permitted you to travel doesn't make you any less or more of a scoundrel.
  - lm28469 2y ago
    Try reading about African and Middle Eastern history...
petre 2y ago
They hold a referendum every two years and each time they vote to stay with France. Maybe NC doesn't want to become Vanuatu.

There have been several independence referendum and all ended with a "no", and you're probably not very aware of all the subtleties of the situation, you should read about it before jumping to "imperialism" It reminds me of redditors criticising France for sending their army to Mali but if they researched for not even 5 second they wouldn't have discovered that Mali explicitly asked for France to send troops on their territory....

trustno2 2y ago
The referendum was boycotted by the opposition because it was in the middle of Covid-19
- lm28469 2y ago
  "The" ? What about the other two ? See that's exactly what I'm talking about, people with hard opinions and strong words but a very superficial knowledge of the situation
- boudin 2y ago
  As a bit of background, this was because the Kanak were mourning the people the lost to Covid at the time of the referndum. The pro independance party asked for the vote to be postponed, which was rejected. The referendum was boycotted. As such the vote is not recognised by a big chunk of the population. This referendum was the last of three that were agreed on following violent events occuring in the 1990s. I think this was a really stupid move from the government, now there will be tensions until a new referendum about independance is organised or insependance is obtained by force. More information here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_New_Caledonian_independence_referendum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_New_Caledonian_independ...
  - fvdessen 2y ago
    I’m not extremely familiar with the issue but it seems the independentists are a de-facto minority, which may also be the actual reason for the boycott of the last referendum, which was already heavily biased in their factor by excluding 20% of the population
    - boudin 2y ago
      The result of the second referendum was not showing independantists as a small minority: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Caledonian_independence_referendum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_New_Caledonian_independ... I'm not sure what the outcome would have been, but having such an important vote happening during an exceptional context like the first 2 years of covid really doesn't seem like a good idea.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  Then I hope they learned an important lesson about boycotting referenda.
zrn900 2y ago
Subtlety, shcmutlety, its literally French and half-french colonizers repressing indigenous islanders. What the colonists vote for does not make democracy. > It reminds me of redditors criticising France for sending their army to Mali but if they researched for not even 5 second they wouldn't have discovered that Mali explicitly asked for France to send troops on their territory.... Yeah, the former French-backed governments, 'asking' France to please send troops to Mali. If the enemies of 'the West' do it, its bad and its imperialism. But if 'the West' does it, its magically 'okay'.
- azmodeus 2y ago
  Where do you draw the line? Do you think only native Americans should have a vote in the USA? Or only Yakutsk in parts of Siberia?
  - zrn900 2y ago
    The one that's happening in New Caledonia is not the kind of genocidal settler-colonialism that happened 100-200 years ago. It is happening here and now. There is no comparison.
- lm28469 2y ago
  I doubt you even have surface level of the topic, can you explain your view or is it just "west bad"? Is ECOWAS also imperialism? Is it ok to let countries fall to islamists because helping them even if they explicitly ask is "imperialism"?
  - zrn900 2y ago
    > Is ECOWAS also imperialism? Hell yeah it is. Its a French-backed organization. > Is it ok to let countries fall to Islamists because helping them even if they explicitly ask is "imperialism"? Funny how the people who criticize other countries for imperialism when they do it try, to use it for themselves when they need to justify something. Russia helped the UN-recognized government of Syria clean up the Islamists that - ironically - the US was funding and training. They were called imperialists. > I doubt you even have surface level of the topic Calling out doublespeak does not require much. Just like the one above. > "west bad"? Yeah. Precisely that. As of this very moment its still trying to cling on to a world order it set up for exploiting everyone on the planet - including its own people. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/26/blinken-biden-china-policy-speech-00035385 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/26/blinken-biden-china... It murdered ~1 million Iraqis for their oil, it backed head-cutting Islamists for controlling the oil just recently. It even kills its own people when they cant pay for healthcare, and it exports that system to everywhere for profit. But its still blabbering about 'democracy' and 'values'. Just like you.
dumdumdumdum 2y ago
Can all countries do this, or is it only limited to Europeans? Ship enough people half-way across the world and hold referendums to assert your position.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Anyone who can do it, can do it. The strong do what they wish and the weak suffer what they must. This is the way the world really works. Throughout history, countries around the world have taken other territories as their own. How many of them have ever been courteous enough to allow referendums to break off again? It is that courtesy that is remarkable, simply taking territory is normal.
  - dumdumdumdum 2y ago
    > Throughout history, countries around the world have taken other territories as their own. How many of them have ever been courteous enough to allow referendums to break off again? It is that courtesy that is remarkable, simply taking territory is normal. Usually neighboring states, which were peer competitors. And even then it's always been seen as an aberration and not the norm. Modern European imperialism was unique in it's global scope and barbarity. Offering a token referendum after you've wiped out the natives or destroyed a society's cultural, economic, religious nature is not the noble gesture you think it is.
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      The moral difference between conquering your neighbor's territory and going around the world to conquer territory is insignificant. In either case you are taking by force land which other people consider their own; how far your technology permitted you to travel doesn't make you any less or more of a scoundrel.
- lm28469 2y ago
  Try reading about African and Middle Eastern history...

petre 2y ago

They hold a referendum every two years and each time they vote to stay with France. Maybe NC doesn't want to become Vanuatu.