5 ms·

What happens is the graphics and movement get glitchy and eventually unplayable - I wouldn’t call this “non-Euclidean Doom” - just “consequences of messing with

What happens is the graphics and movement get glitchy and eventually unplayable - I wouldn’t call this “non-Euclidean Doom” - just “consequences of messing with the constants of the universe” - whereas I’d expect an actual non-Euclidean Doom to be like this: https://youtu.be/kEB11PQ9Eo8?si=0HNlpGFBii2AIK1n https://youtu.be/kEB11PQ9Eo8?si=0HNlpGFBii2AIK1n

Ballas 2y ago
That is exactly what I expected as well. Here's another non-Euclidian implementation with a couple of other novel ideas (at least they were to me): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl40xidKF-4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl40xidKF-4
aeyes 2y ago
I expected MyHouse.WAD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wAo54DHDY0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wAo54DHDY0
benrutter 2y ago
Woah! Thanks for sharing, that video is amazing, I'd love to see an actual game using that effect.
- samvher 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperRogue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperRogue (not exactly the effect in the video you responded to, but similar category)
- JonathonW 2y ago
  That'd pretty much be Portal; the technique he's using to render there is basically the same as the one Portal uses (the Portal engine can do "invisible" portals like this too, but there's only one point across both games where they're used in the finished game). I suppose something around non-Euclidean levels without user-created portals could be interesting, but I think it'd be hard to flesh that out to a point where there's enough there for a whole game without coming up with some other gimmick.
  - wizzwizz4 2y ago
    I know it was left as an exercise for the reader, but I never worked out where that was used. (The turret live fire exercise comes to mind, but I thought I'd ruled that out.) Do you happen to know?
    - wizzwizz4 2y ago
      Remembered the entity name, and this information is on the wiki page: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Linked_portal_door https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Linked_portal_door > They are also used twice in the campaign (contrary to the commentary's claim that they are only used once): in the GLaDOS wakeup sequence where they are used to connect the incinerator shaft to GLaDOS' chamber, and in Finale 2 where they are used to connect the "trap" chamber to the main map. These are the only uses of this entity in the final game.
- smellf 2y ago
  Antichamber: https://store.steampowered.com/app/219890/Antichamber/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/219890/Antichamber/ Also look at myhouse.wad for actual Doom in actual non-Euclidean spaces.
  - jimbobthrowawy 2y ago
    Hyperbolica exists too, and is pretty fun even if I haven't finished it yet. it has hyperbolic and spherical geometry in it at least. The only game to give me motion sickness by watching a streamer playing it, and no motion sickness at all playing the VR version. Very odd.
- sebazzz 2y ago
  If you like this, try Superliminal (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/)
torginus 2y ago
This looks like portals. Essentially how FPS games of that era worked is that they had rooms stitched together by doorways (or 'portals') as a way of occlusion culling. While perfectly capable of representing sensible geometry, it was actually not a requirement that the geometry should make sense in any shape or form and allowed arbitrary connections between rooms.
- neglesaks 2y ago
  The Marathon 1+2 engine back in the 90s allowed for "5D space", ie. "Spatial" Rooms that were capable of overlapping each other, because the engine only defined the floor polygon with a given height and these floor polys were connected to each other at the vertices to create the actual level spaces. So even though you were in the same absolute space coordinate as another player, you were not necessarily in the same room. Good times. <:o)
  - vitaflo 2y ago
    Huh I never knew that. I just knew you couldn’t have two floors directly above each other while also having both floors visible to the player at the same time. All of my Mara 1 maps I built would crash when I tried this. I wonder if what you just explained is why.
    - hedgehog 2y ago
      I don't know how they actually did it but conceptually I thought about it as traversing the map's segments depth first in 2D starting at one edge of the viewport & the currently occupied polygon. Simple, and allows freedom like overlapping rooms, but would go sideways in cases like the one you describe.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Doom actually didn't permit overlapping rooms like Duke3d and some other games did, although some source ports of Doom do allow it (notably used by the trendy MyHouse.wad)
lambdaxyzw 2y ago
This it's also not what non-euclidean means. It's just regular 3d world with portals. Games of that era often used portals in the engine, they just didn't use them to implement impossible rooms. I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but it's a common misunderstanding. For actual non-Euclidean stuff I recommend ZenoRogue stuff. For example a simple game with Nil geometry[1], giantic bossfight in non euclidean world rogue game[2], or some general geometry weirdness [3]. Or just check out any of their stuff. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gejRg_q70EA&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3Vl https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gejRg_q70EA&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3V... [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jcnXI8IArRI&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3Vl https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jcnXI8IArRI&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3V... [3] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yqUv2JO2BCs&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3Vl https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yqUv2JO2BCs&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3V...
- jerf 2y ago
  "Non-Euclidean" is probably just fine meaning "literally anything other than straight Euclidean". Euclidean geometry doesn't have portals in it. Being truly hyperbolic or spherical is an interesting case but I don't think we have to insist that's the only viable meaning. Adjoining portals to Euclidean geometry by my reckoning breaks 3 of the 5 core axioms of Euclidean geometry... which means by sheer axiom break count, Euclidean geometry plus portals is "more" non-Euclidean than spherical or hyperbolic geometry. (Which may not seem like a terribly meaningful count, but I think would be reflected in what proofs in a portalized space would end up looking like. You'd grow a forest of case analyses and conditions in even the simplest proofs.) (And it's possibly 4 axioms broken; I'm reckoning "all right angles are equal" as still holding, though I'm not 100% sure a "normal" right angle and a right angle generated where a portal bisects the angle is necessarily "equal" in all relevant ways. It's been a while since I did geometry proofs but the more I ponder it the less sure I am. If not that would leave only "a straight line segment can be prolonged indefinitely" as holding, and unlike in Euclidean geometry a straight line segment may intersect itself arbitrarily often.)
  - j2kun 2y ago
    Officially it cannot be called a "geometry" at all if it does not satisfy the other axioms. So it's a "non-Euclidean non-geometry."
jezzamon 2y ago
To be a bit pedantic, that video is incorrect in its use of the term non-euclidean. The folks behind hyperrogue made few videos that show actual non-euclidean geometry: https://youtu.be/yqUv2JO2BCs?si=AutaqS5unvT7cDjw https://youtu.be/yqUv2JO2BCs?si=AutaqS5unvT7cDjw Comparing some of the weird geometry effects in the doom video, like things sliding sideways when you move forward, I feel like it's reasonable to call this doom non-euclidean!
- owenpalmer 2y ago
  [dead]
- babypuncher 2y ago
  Part of the problem is that Doom isn't truly 3D, it's a 2D universe with hacks to make it look 3D. So in the final presentation, you're seeing a facsimile of a universe where the value of Pi has only changed in two out of three spatial dimensions.
  - mat0 2y ago
    This is not really true. It is true that this particular 3D environment has some limitations, but it is 3D. A video here discussing this exact topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYGJQqhMN1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYGJQqhMN1U
- llm_trw 2y ago
  For a more modern take (that's kid friendly) have a look at https://store.steampowered.com/app/1256230/Hyperbolica/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1256230/Hyperbolica/
kqr 2y ago
I'm surprised nobody has brought up Antichamber yet. It was an excellent game using a similar concept to create actual puzzles. Come to think of it, long enough has probably passed that I might enjoy replaying it.
- cubefox 2y ago
  That's a great game, but it only uses portals to locally break the rules of geometry. The phrase "non-euclidean geometry" normally means either hyperbolic of elliptic (spherical) geometry.
- solardev 2y ago
  If you like that, take a look at Viewfinder too: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1382070/Viewfinder/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1382070/Viewfinder/ You take pictures to create portals to other parts of the level, but in any orientation/angle that you want.
  - astrange 2y ago
    Superliminal is also good. (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/)
    - ghusbands 2y ago
      If you play it, though, expect something that's not a challenge but more just an interesting presentation of some ideas.
      - astrange 2y ago
        It's made to make you feel smart when you solve the puzzles while not actually being really difficult, which is fine if you only play it once. The writing is too wordy though, which is an issue when translated - I've watched some Japanese streamers play it and the subtitles try to keep every single idea in there, making them so long they're a headache to read.
MaximilianEmel 2y ago
Here's another example of a "non-euclidean" engine/game, which in my opinion is more authentically non-euclidian: https://youtu.be/tl40xidKF-4 https://youtu.be/tl40xidKF-4
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
water-your-self 2y ago
More links for the pile https://youtu.be/tl40xidKF-4?feature=shared https://youtu.be/tl40xidKF-4?feature=shared
citizen_friend 2y ago
All he does is change pi… that’s not any geometry it’s just a bug. This is basically click bait,

Ballas 2y ago

That is exactly what I expected as well. Here's another non-Euclidian implementation with a couple of other novel ideas (at least they were to me): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl40xidKF-4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl40xidKF-4

aeyes 2y ago

I expected MyHouse.WAD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wAo54DHDY0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wAo54DHDY0

benrutter 2y ago

Woah! Thanks for sharing, that video is amazing, I'd love to see an actual game using that effect.

samvher 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperRogue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperRogue (not exactly the effect in the video you responded to, but similar category)
JonathonW 2y ago
That'd pretty much be Portal; the technique he's using to render there is basically the same as the one Portal uses (the Portal engine can do "invisible" portals like this too, but there's only one point across both games where they're used in the finished game). I suppose something around non-Euclidean levels without user-created portals could be interesting, but I think it'd be hard to flesh that out to a point where there's enough there for a whole game without coming up with some other gimmick.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  I know it was left as an exercise for the reader, but I never worked out where that was used. (The turret live fire exercise comes to mind, but I thought I'd ruled that out.) Do you happen to know?
  - wizzwizz4 2y ago
    Remembered the entity name, and this information is on the wiki page: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Linked_portal_door https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Linked_portal_door > They are also used twice in the campaign (contrary to the commentary's claim that they are only used once): in the GLaDOS wakeup sequence where they are used to connect the incinerator shaft to GLaDOS' chamber, and in Finale 2 where they are used to connect the "trap" chamber to the main map. These are the only uses of this entity in the final game.
smellf 2y ago
Antichamber: https://store.steampowered.com/app/219890/Antichamber/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/219890/Antichamber/ Also look at myhouse.wad for actual Doom in actual non-Euclidean spaces.
- jimbobthrowawy 2y ago
  Hyperbolica exists too, and is pretty fun even if I haven't finished it yet. it has hyperbolic and spherical geometry in it at least. The only game to give me motion sickness by watching a streamer playing it, and no motion sickness at all playing the VR version. Very odd.
sebazzz 2y ago
If you like this, try Superliminal (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/)

torginus 2y ago

This looks like portals. Essentially how FPS games of that era worked is that they had rooms stitched together by doorways (or 'portals') as a way of occlusion culling. While perfectly capable of representing sensible geometry, it was actually not a requirement that the geometry should make sense in any shape or form and allowed arbitrary connections between rooms.

neglesaks 2y ago
The Marathon 1+2 engine back in the 90s allowed for "5D space", ie. "Spatial" Rooms that were capable of overlapping each other, because the engine only defined the floor polygon with a given height and these floor polys were connected to each other at the vertices to create the actual level spaces. So even though you were in the same absolute space coordinate as another player, you were not necessarily in the same room. Good times. <:o)
- vitaflo 2y ago
  Huh I never knew that. I just knew you couldn’t have two floors directly above each other while also having both floors visible to the player at the same time. All of my Mara 1 maps I built would crash when I tried this. I wonder if what you just explained is why.
  - hedgehog 2y ago
    I don't know how they actually did it but conceptually I thought about it as traversing the map's segments depth first in 2D starting at one edge of the viewport & the currently occupied polygon. Simple, and allows freedom like overlapping rooms, but would go sideways in cases like the one you describe.
lupusreal 2y ago
Doom actually didn't permit overlapping rooms like Duke3d and some other games did, although some source ports of Doom do allow it (notably used by the trendy MyHouse.wad)

lambdaxyzw 2y ago

This it's also not what non-euclidean means. It's just regular 3d world with portals. Games of that era often used portals in the engine, they just didn't use them to implement impossible rooms. I'm not trying to be nitpicky, but it's a common misunderstanding. For actual non-Euclidean stuff I recommend ZenoRogue stuff. For example a simple game with Nil geometry[1], giantic bossfight in non euclidean world rogue game[2], or some general geometry weirdness [3]. Or just check out any of their stuff. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gejRg_q70EA&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3Vl https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gejRg_q70EA&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3V... [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jcnXI8IArRI&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3Vl https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jcnXI8IArRI&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3V... [3] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yqUv2JO2BCs&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3Vl https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yqUv2JO2BCs&pp=ygUJemVub3JvZ3V...

jerf 2y ago
"Non-Euclidean" is probably just fine meaning "literally anything other than straight Euclidean". Euclidean geometry doesn't have portals in it. Being truly hyperbolic or spherical is an interesting case but I don't think we have to insist that's the only viable meaning. Adjoining portals to Euclidean geometry by my reckoning breaks 3 of the 5 core axioms of Euclidean geometry... which means by sheer axiom break count, Euclidean geometry plus portals is "more" non-Euclidean than spherical or hyperbolic geometry. (Which may not seem like a terribly meaningful count, but I think would be reflected in what proofs in a portalized space would end up looking like. You'd grow a forest of case analyses and conditions in even the simplest proofs.) (And it's possibly 4 axioms broken; I'm reckoning "all right angles are equal" as still holding, though I'm not 100% sure a "normal" right angle and a right angle generated where a portal bisects the angle is necessarily "equal" in all relevant ways. It's been a while since I did geometry proofs but the more I ponder it the less sure I am. If not that would leave only "a straight line segment can be prolonged indefinitely" as holding, and unlike in Euclidean geometry a straight line segment may intersect itself arbitrarily often.)
- j2kun 2y ago
  Officially it cannot be called a "geometry" at all if it does not satisfy the other axioms. So it's a "non-Euclidean non-geometry."

jezzamon 2y ago

To be a bit pedantic, that video is incorrect in its use of the term non-euclidean. The folks behind hyperrogue made few videos that show actual non-euclidean geometry: https://youtu.be/yqUv2JO2BCs?si=AutaqS5unvT7cDjw https://youtu.be/yqUv2JO2BCs?si=AutaqS5unvT7cDjw Comparing some of the weird geometry effects in the doom video, like things sliding sideways when you move forward, I feel like it's reasonable to call this doom non-euclidean!

owenpalmer 2y ago
[dead]
babypuncher 2y ago
Part of the problem is that Doom isn't truly 3D, it's a 2D universe with hacks to make it look 3D. So in the final presentation, you're seeing a facsimile of a universe where the value of Pi has only changed in two out of three spatial dimensions.
- mat0 2y ago
  This is not really true. It is true that this particular 3D environment has some limitations, but it is 3D. A video here discussing this exact topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYGJQqhMN1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYGJQqhMN1U
llm_trw 2y ago
For a more modern take (that's kid friendly) have a look at https://store.steampowered.com/app/1256230/Hyperbolica/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1256230/Hyperbolica/

kqr 2y ago

I'm surprised nobody has brought up Antichamber yet. It was an excellent game using a similar concept to create actual puzzles. Come to think of it, long enough has probably passed that I might enjoy replaying it.

cubefox 2y ago
That's a great game, but it only uses portals to locally break the rules of geometry. The phrase "non-euclidean geometry" normally means either hyperbolic of elliptic (spherical) geometry.
solardev 2y ago
If you like that, take a look at Viewfinder too: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1382070/Viewfinder/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1382070/Viewfinder/ You take pictures to create portals to other parts of the level, but in any orientation/angle that you want.
- astrange 2y ago
  Superliminal is also good. (https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1049410/Superliminal/)
  - ghusbands 2y ago
    If you play it, though, expect something that's not a challenge but more just an interesting presentation of some ideas.
    - astrange 2y ago
      It's made to make you feel smart when you solve the puzzles while not actually being really difficult, which is fine if you only play it once. The writing is too wordy though, which is an issue when translated - I've watched some Japanese streamers play it and the subtitles try to keep every single idea in there, making them so long they're a headache to read.

MaximilianEmel 2y ago

Here's another example of a "non-euclidean" engine/game, which in my opinion is more authentically non-euclidian: https://youtu.be/tl40xidKF-4 https://youtu.be/tl40xidKF-4

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

water-your-self 2y ago

More links for the pile https://youtu.be/tl40xidKF-4?feature=shared https://youtu.be/tl40xidKF-4?feature=shared

citizen_friend 2y ago

All he does is change pi… that’s not any geometry it’s just a bug. This is basically click bait,