4 ms·

Defining a colour is a perversely difficult task. Does the RAL system offer anything unique? Wikipedia tells us it is based on the CIELAB and expresses color in

by Daub 2y ago

Defining a colour is a perversely difficult task. Does the RAL system offer anything unique? Wikipedia tells us it is based on the CIELAB and expresses color in terms of it's hue, saturation and lightness. But does it have any advantage over (for example) the Munsell color space? Or is the difference between the two just a cultural thing, like Celsius and Fahrenheit? Hue is the beast in the box. How many other natural phenomena are expressed as terms, not degrees of intensity? I often imagine how much simpler color science would be if humans did not possess the ability to perceive hue difference. Indeed color would likely be perceived as too simple a phenomenon to warrent scientific enquiry.

Rygian 2y ago
I would guesst aht the added value of RAL is being a formal standard, such that it can be mandated by laws and regulations to paint things with a given RAL color. For example, refurbishing a building within a protected area (close to a historic monument is a typical scenario) will require the use of materials (paints, window frames, doors, blinds) coated with a specific subset of RAL colors, selected by a public body to match the intended scenery.
- Daub 2y ago
  That seems to suggest that it is an alternative to Muncell, no better or worse. Muncell is the formal standard used to define the color of dental impamnts and beer, amongst other things.
  - eropple 2y ago
    Munsell is similar, yes. RAL is conventionally used for varnishes, powder-coats, and (sometimes) general plastics. I'm not familiar with Munsell's attitudes towards use, though. RAL is notable in being pretty lax about casual use of their color system.
myself248 2y ago
I'd love a better understanding of the intellectual encumbrance of Pantone colors, and whether RAL colors are more free in that regard.
- Daub 2y ago
  To be frank, I suspect that there is little intellectual meat to either of these systems. They appear to both be no more than formally aproved indexes.
  - sargun 2y ago
    They produce calibration sets. I'm not sure how they choose the colours they do (nor the names), but their most important job is to distribute the color sets with perfectly consistent colors, which isn't "free" work.
- eropple 2y ago
  RAL is copyrighted, but they don't have a pack of legal maniacs chasing you down for using them. For example, Festool's specific green is RAL 6018 (Yellow Green) and you can use it as an interchange standard without paying them.
  - Daub 2y ago
    It's amazing that Pantone and Ral managed to get away with copyrighting something so fundemantal. Surely these should be international standards, like centremetres or Celsius.
    - constantcrying 2y ago
      Copyright is something automatic, it's also not like these companies have copyrighted the "color", but the mapping between color and description. The only way they wouldn't have a copyright is if they get challenged in court and loose. There is also a serious difference between RAL and Patone, RAL is managed by a non-profit corporation.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
> Does the RAL system offer anything unique? RAL is quite old and entrenched. I'm not sure if it "offers" anything in particular but at least over here a ton of colors used in the wild are just RAL codes.
wongarsu 2y ago
It fulfills a similar role to Pantone and predates it by about three decades. WWII is probably to blame for its limited spread beyond German-speaking countries. But in Germany and Switzerland it's the preferred way for specifying paint and coating colors. Celsius and Fahrenheit is a good comparison. RAL became widespread and nobody sees a reason to switch; but other regions prefer other systems because of how history played out.
- rahkiin 2y ago
  Most paints in the Netherlands is also with RAL. Painters can look at your wall and tell the code.
jimnotgym 2y ago
> But does it have any advantage over (for example) the Munsell color space? I think I am right in saying RAL is a more open system than Munsell. I think anyone can print their own RAL guide as long as it meets the standard. Can't find a reference
rmu09 2y ago
Even specifying something like a RAL number is not enough. E.g. powder coatings with the same spec from different manufacturers or even from different lots from the same manufacturer can look noticeably different if placed next to each other. So in order to get a perfect match you need to coat your stuff from one batch of powder coating.
tarikjn 2y ago
RAL is a lot, lot cheaper than Munsell or Pantone (now both owned by X-Rite) and is particularly well suited for Industrial Design. - you can get yourself a fan of RAL Classic colors for $16, which are solid colors that include enough grays, whites and colors to get started and cover all basic needs, and that most industrial/finishing shops already have - most shops now also accept Pantone PMS C (coated), which cost $260, but Pantone comes from printing and so has no whites, you need to add FHI TPG+TCX (another $260) to get whites. Pantone recommends replacing the fans every 12-18 months before their die age - Munsell is a "full" color space so as such it is inherently more expensive (even more so that it is now owned by X-Rite), with a rich history in USDA standards, food QA, science and artists. NCS and RAL "Design" also feature "full" color space, most certainly a lot cheaper than Munsell Cost is important because everybody in your supply chain need to have the color system on hand: designers, marketing, suppliers, QA. Curated colors: - RAL Classic (216) $16, RAL Effect (490) $70 - Pantone PMS (2,390), Pantone FHI (2,625) each $260 - RAL P1 Classic plastics (100 colors + textures): $2,100 - RAL P2 Effect plastics (200 colors + textures): $2,700 - Pantone plastics (1,755): $9,078 Color spaces: - Munsell (1,600): $1,525 - $1,625 (Munsell book of colors matte - glossy), cheaper subselections of colors based around neutral, soil, plant & rock colors - NCS (2,050): $210, used a lot in architecture/interior design, from Sweden - RAL Design (1,825): $160, all its colors are additional to/not in Classic/Design If you need a few colors, a curated system is more adapted and cheaper, but a curated system with thousands of colors (Pantone) is more expensive and less versatile than a system based on a color space. As you can see the whole RAL catalog/system of color is designed for cost and so that you can start small and expand, and have enough variety at each level + it has nice features that shows its Industrial orientation such as all colors being solid and textured plastics. RAL catalog has each system building on the other, Munsell is a color space with subsets picked from it for specific uses, NCS is always the full color space, Pantone is a gigantic, somewhat incoherent curated system that started with printing and expanded into fashion & cosmetics. Munsell is based around different sectors of industry & science, so color subsets availability, design and price dictate that it is uneconomical for other sectors or more general design outside gov standards. E.g. Munsell even has a frozen french fry color standard book! [1] There are many more color systems and color spaces, but those are the main ones for which there is wide availability of physical color books around the World. [1] https://www.pantone.com/products/munsell/munsell-usda-frozen-french-fry-standard-5-pack https://www.pantone.com/products/munsell/munsell-usda-frozen...

by Daub 2y ago

Rygian 2y ago

I would guesst aht the added value of RAL is being a formal standard, such that it can be mandated by laws and regulations to paint things with a given RAL color. For example, refurbishing a building within a protected area (close to a historic monument is a typical scenario) will require the use of materials (paints, window frames, doors, blinds) coated with a specific subset of RAL colors, selected by a public body to match the intended scenery.

Daub 2y ago
That seems to suggest that it is an alternative to Muncell, no better or worse. Muncell is the formal standard used to define the color of dental impamnts and beer, amongst other things.
- eropple 2y ago
  Munsell is similar, yes. RAL is conventionally used for varnishes, powder-coats, and (sometimes) general plastics. I'm not familiar with Munsell's attitudes towards use, though. RAL is notable in being pretty lax about casual use of their color system.

myself248 2y ago

I'd love a better understanding of the intellectual encumbrance of Pantone colors, and whether RAL colors are more free in that regard.

Daub 2y ago
To be frank, I suspect that there is little intellectual meat to either of these systems. They appear to both be no more than formally aproved indexes.
- sargun 2y ago
  They produce calibration sets. I'm not sure how they choose the colours they do (nor the names), but their most important job is to distribute the color sets with perfectly consistent colors, which isn't "free" work.
eropple 2y ago
RAL is copyrighted, but they don't have a pack of legal maniacs chasing you down for using them. For example, Festool's specific green is RAL 6018 (Yellow Green) and you can use it as an interchange standard without paying them.
- Daub 2y ago
  It's amazing that Pantone and Ral managed to get away with copyrighting something so fundemantal. Surely these should be international standards, like centremetres or Celsius.
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    Copyright is something automatic, it's also not like these companies have copyrighted the "color", but the mapping between color and description. The only way they wouldn't have a copyright is if they get challenged in court and loose. There is also a serious difference between RAL and Patone, RAL is managed by a non-profit corporation.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago

> Does the RAL system offer anything unique? RAL is quite old and entrenched. I'm not sure if it "offers" anything in particular but at least over here a ton of colors used in the wild are just RAL codes.

wongarsu 2y ago

It fulfills a similar role to Pantone and predates it by about three decades. WWII is probably to blame for its limited spread beyond German-speaking countries. But in Germany and Switzerland it's the preferred way for specifying paint and coating colors. Celsius and Fahrenheit is a good comparison. RAL became widespread and nobody sees a reason to switch; but other regions prefer other systems because of how history played out.

rahkiin 2y ago
Most paints in the Netherlands is also with RAL. Painters can look at your wall and tell the code.

jimnotgym 2y ago

> But does it have any advantage over (for example) the Munsell color space? I think I am right in saying RAL is a more open system than Munsell. I think anyone can print their own RAL guide as long as it meets the standard. Can't find a reference

rmu09 2y ago

Even specifying something like a RAL number is not enough. E.g. powder coatings with the same spec from different manufacturers or even from different lots from the same manufacturer can look noticeably different if placed next to each other. So in order to get a perfect match you need to coat your stuff from one batch of powder coating.

tarikjn 2y ago

RAL is a lot, lot cheaper than Munsell or Pantone (now both owned by X-Rite) and is particularly well suited for Industrial Design. - you can get yourself a fan of RAL Classic colors for $16, which are solid colors that include enough grays, whites and colors to get started and cover all basic needs, and that most industrial/finishing shops already have - most shops now also accept Pantone PMS C (coated), which cost $260, but Pantone comes from printing and so has no whites, you need to add FHI TPG+TCX (another $260) to get whites. Pantone recommends replacing the fans every 12-18 months before their die age - Munsell is a "full" color space so as such it is inherently more expensive (even more so that it is now owned by X-Rite), with a rich history in USDA standards, food QA, science and artists. NCS and RAL "Design" also feature "full" color space, most certainly a lot cheaper than Munsell Cost is important because everybody in your supply chain need to have the color system on hand: designers, marketing, suppliers, QA. Curated colors: - RAL Classic (216) $16, RAL Effect (490) $70 - Pantone PMS (2,390), Pantone FHI (2,625) each $260 - RAL P1 Classic plastics (100 colors + textures): $2,100 - RAL P2 Effect plastics (200 colors + textures): $2,700 - Pantone plastics (1,755): $9,078 Color spaces: - Munsell (1,600): $1,525 - $1,625 (Munsell book of colors matte - glossy), cheaper subselections of colors based around neutral, soil, plant & rock colors - NCS (2,050): $210, used a lot in architecture/interior design, from Sweden - RAL Design (1,825): $160, all its colors are additional to/not in Classic/Design If you need a few colors, a curated system is more adapted and cheaper, but a curated system with thousands of colors (Pantone) is more expensive and less versatile than a system based on a color space. As you can see the whole RAL catalog/system of color is designed for cost and so that you can start small and expand, and have enough variety at each level + it has nice features that shows its Industrial orientation such as all colors being solid and textured plastics. RAL catalog has each system building on the other, Munsell is a color space with subsets picked from it for specific uses, NCS is always the full color space, Pantone is a gigantic, somewhat incoherent curated system that started with printing and expanded into fashion & cosmetics. Munsell is based around different sectors of industry & science, so color subsets availability, design and price dictate that it is uneconomical for other sectors or more general design outside gov standards. E.g. Munsell even has a frozen french fry color standard book! [1] There are many more color systems and color spaces, but those are the main ones for which there is wide availability of physical color books around the World. [1] https://www.pantone.com/products/munsell/munsell-usda-frozen-french-fry-standard-5-pack https://www.pantone.com/products/munsell/munsell-usda-frozen...