4 ms·

C type declarations (and array decays, for that matter) seem to be baggage from B. In B the only type is the machine word, which can perform arithmetic and be

C type declarations (and array decays, for that matter) seem to be baggage from B. In B the only type is the machine word, which can perform arithmetic and be dereferenced. Arrays the only special kind of declaration and are declared like auto foo[10] Where auto is a storage class specifier like extern or static. In that world, having declaration follow usage makes perfect sense. There's no "other" kinds of data to worry about, the operators you can apply to an expression describes its type exactly.

WalterBright 2y ago
The array decay is probably the worst mistake C made, and was unfortunately carried over to C++. Fortunately, it is fixable: https://www.digitalmars.com/articles/C-biggest-mistake.html https://www.digitalmars.com/articles/C-biggest-mistake.html
- tialaramex 2y ago
  As usual the worst mistake is Hoare's Billion Dollar Mistake (null). But yes obviously arrays shouldn't decay. The "fix" would be to not have arrays decay. I believe C++ could probably get there if it had taken Epochs, I further believe taking Epochs (P1881) when it was proposed would have been extremely disruptive but perhaps possible and worth attempting. I do not believe it's still possible, the moment passed and with it, in my view, any hope of salvaging C++. Without Epochs, any and every such change to C++ is similarly disruptive and that's too expensive so more or less nothing gets fixed, instead layers of kludges must be added. That's how Foonathan ends up with: class foo final trivially_relocatable namespace() { … };
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    The change I proposed is not disruptive in any way. As for the billion dollar mistake, a null pointer reference results in a seg fault. But the array decay results in buffer overflows, the #1 problem in shipped C code, and the buffer overflows result in memory corruption. Memory corruption is much, much, much worse than a seg fault. For example, buffer overflows are exploitable by malware. Seg faults are not. Hence, the array decay is the worst mistake.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      I am baffled by the lack of interest in incorporating the proposal into C. Instead, C23 gets Unicode normalized identifiers, a complex and pointless feature that is easily achieved by other means, if one really really wants it.
      - turndown 2y ago
        Your post is great and provides an elegant solution to the syntactic case for parameters, but it also lacks almost all detail on how this would work in practice. Say I’m writing the `void food(char a[..])` function. What are the semantics of this fat pointer type, exactly? How do I access the size? What is the ABI around this like? How is the size set on a fat pointer? It just requires so much extra stuff to get it into proposal shape.
        WalterBright 2y ago
        This is all thoroughly implemented in D, so I know it works. It's probably D's most well-liked feature. > semantics Accessing a[i] means i gets checked against the array length, and it's a fatal error if it doesn't. > ABI Same as struct {size_t length; void* ptr;} > size sizeof(a) > length __length(a) or something like that
  - throwawaymaths 2y ago
    null is not a problem and is arguably useful. Look at how zig does it, extremely safe. The problem with most languages is that null is unguarded, and/or generally emittable as part of any given type.
  - prerok 2y ago
    I must say that this "billion dollar mistake" about nulls really baffles me. What's the mistake? We invent new languages almost daily and none of them have ever resolved the problem. I mean, when you start with a pointer, it's uninitialized. Setting it to null is much better than having it point somewhere, where there might be incorrectly interpreted data. So, null. We have Java, suffering the same problem, Golang suffering the same problem and Rust, where you have the same problem if you call unwrap, without checking that all code paths ensure you have the value populated. Seems to me this is an inherent problem of using an uninitialized value... so, what is the mistake?
    - tialaramex 2y ago
      > I must say that this "billion dollar mistake" about nulls really baffles me. What's the mistake? The mistake is that Nothing isn't a kind of thing. It's a categorical mistake, enshrined in many programming languages because it was easy and they didn't realise it was a bad idea, that's what Tony's talk is about - he's the one who made the mistake originally. > I mean, when you start with a pointer, it's uninitialized You're talking about a language implementation detail. Indeed I'd say plainly, a language defect, particularly notable in C (and so C++) where it continues to cause problems. > We have Java, suffering the same problem That's correct, all non-primitive Java objects can be null instead. > Golang suffering the same problem That's correct, Go chooses "make representable states legal" rather than "make illegal states unrepresentable" and so every type must have a legal "zero" state. > and Rust, where you have the same problem if you call unwrap, Nope. Try it. Call "unwrap" on a Vec, or a HashMap, or a File. You can't, there is no such method, it's a method on Option. > Seems to me this is an inherent problem of using an uninitialized value... so, what is the mistake? Goodness no. An actual uninitialized value by default would be a design mistake. They're currently trying to fix this mistake for C++ 26. If for performance reasons you need to delay initialization you need a trick like Rust's MaybeUninit<T> wrapper. You certainly can't paper over it with null.
- juped 2y ago
  I never knew you shared my biggest gripe with C. I really wish this or an equivalent had made it into some C standard.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    It's so easy to fix, too.
- Ferret7446 2y ago
  It doesn't seem that bad to me. You can easily understand it by reading a short article, and it makes sense in a basic CS 101 mental model of computing.

WalterBright 2y ago

The array decay is probably the worst mistake C made, and was unfortunately carried over to C++. Fortunately, it is fixable: https://www.digitalmars.com/articles/C-biggest-mistake.html https://www.digitalmars.com/articles/C-biggest-mistake.html

tialaramex 2y ago
As usual the worst mistake is Hoare's Billion Dollar Mistake (null). But yes obviously arrays shouldn't decay. The "fix" would be to not have arrays decay. I believe C++ could probably get there if it had taken Epochs, I further believe taking Epochs (P1881) when it was proposed would have been extremely disruptive but perhaps possible and worth attempting. I do not believe it's still possible, the moment passed and with it, in my view, any hope of salvaging C++. Without Epochs, any and every such change to C++ is similarly disruptive and that's too expensive so more or less nothing gets fixed, instead layers of kludges must be added. That's how Foonathan ends up with: class foo final trivially_relocatable namespace() { … };
- WalterBright 2y ago
  The change I proposed is not disruptive in any way. As for the billion dollar mistake, a null pointer reference results in a seg fault. But the array decay results in buffer overflows, the #1 problem in shipped C code, and the buffer overflows result in memory corruption. Memory corruption is much, much, much worse than a seg fault. For example, buffer overflows are exploitable by malware. Seg faults are not. Hence, the array decay is the worst mistake.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    I am baffled by the lack of interest in incorporating the proposal into C. Instead, C23 gets Unicode normalized identifiers, a complex and pointless feature that is easily achieved by other means, if one really really wants it.
    - turndown 2y ago
      Your post is great and provides an elegant solution to the syntactic case for parameters, but it also lacks almost all detail on how this would work in practice. Say I’m writing the `void food(char a[..])` function. What are the semantics of this fat pointer type, exactly? How do I access the size? What is the ABI around this like? How is the size set on a fat pointer? It just requires so much extra stuff to get it into proposal shape.
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        This is all thoroughly implemented in D, so I know it works. It's probably D's most well-liked feature. > semantics Accessing a[i] means i gets checked against the array length, and it's a fatal error if it doesn't. > ABI Same as struct {size_t length; void* ptr;} > size sizeof(a) > length __length(a) or something like that
- throwawaymaths 2y ago
  null is not a problem and is arguably useful. Look at how zig does it, extremely safe. The problem with most languages is that null is unguarded, and/or generally emittable as part of any given type.
- prerok 2y ago
  I must say that this "billion dollar mistake" about nulls really baffles me. What's the mistake? We invent new languages almost daily and none of them have ever resolved the problem. I mean, when you start with a pointer, it's uninitialized. Setting it to null is much better than having it point somewhere, where there might be incorrectly interpreted data. So, null. We have Java, suffering the same problem, Golang suffering the same problem and Rust, where you have the same problem if you call unwrap, without checking that all code paths ensure you have the value populated. Seems to me this is an inherent problem of using an uninitialized value... so, what is the mistake?
  - tialaramex 2y ago
    > I must say that this "billion dollar mistake" about nulls really baffles me. What's the mistake? The mistake is that Nothing isn't a kind of thing. It's a categorical mistake, enshrined in many programming languages because it was easy and they didn't realise it was a bad idea, that's what Tony's talk is about - he's the one who made the mistake originally. > I mean, when you start with a pointer, it's uninitialized You're talking about a language implementation detail. Indeed I'd say plainly, a language defect, particularly notable in C (and so C++) where it continues to cause problems. > We have Java, suffering the same problem That's correct, all non-primitive Java objects can be null instead. > Golang suffering the same problem That's correct, Go chooses "make representable states legal" rather than "make illegal states unrepresentable" and so every type must have a legal "zero" state. > and Rust, where you have the same problem if you call unwrap, Nope. Try it. Call "unwrap" on a Vec, or a HashMap, or a File. You can't, there is no such method, it's a method on Option. > Seems to me this is an inherent problem of using an uninitialized value... so, what is the mistake? Goodness no. An actual uninitialized value by default would be a design mistake. They're currently trying to fix this mistake for C++ 26. If for performance reasons you need to delay initialization you need a trick like Rust's MaybeUninit<T> wrapper. You certainly can't paper over it with null.
juped 2y ago
I never knew you shared my biggest gripe with C. I really wish this or an equivalent had made it into some C standard.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  It's so easy to fix, too.
Ferret7446 2y ago
It doesn't seem that bad to me. You can easily understand it by reading a short article, and it makes sense in a basic CS 101 mental model of computing.