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> all seem to agree...that marijuana use is degenerate behavior... Hindus, Muslims, Christians, and the world’s largest atheist countries are on the same page

> all seem to agree...that marijuana use is degenerate behavior... Hindus, Muslims, Christians, and the world’s largest atheist countries are on the same page Maybe leave the Hindus out of this. You might not have the full picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang#Culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhang#Culture Moreover there are many "degenerate behaviors" that we don't currently lock people up for. Like not washing hands after going to the bathroom, even after going #2. Does someone quietly consuming a plant without bothering anyone qualify as "degenerate"? > It’s also illegal in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, though we can debate how homogenous or not those countries are. I didn't realize there was a debate at all. They're incredibly diverse countries. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcotic_Drugs_and_Psychotropic_Substances_Act,_1985#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcotic_Drugs_and_Psychotropi...) cannabis was made illegal in India due to US pressure and international treaties. I didn't look up the history of cannabis legality for the other 2 countries. I know you were trying to dispute GP's assertion that cannabis was made illegal in the US as a way to selectively prosecute minorities by pointing out how it's illegal worldwide. The example above might show you how both could be true. (Btw I have no idea if racism is the reason cannabis became illegal in the US, or whether it was just a regular moral panic)

rayiner 2y ago
I think there’s a distinction to be drawn between specific religious use on certain holidays and recreational use of marijuana. But otherwise fair point. > I know you were trying to dispute GP's assertion that cannabis was made illegal in the US as a way to selectively prosecute minorities by pointing out how it's illegal worldwide. The example above might show you how both could be true. But your link suggests that the first point is not true. It categorizes countries into groups based on their positions in the treaty. But the anti-drug groups included many countries besides the US: “Manufacturing states group: This group included primarily Western industrialized nations, the key players being the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Switzerland, the Netherlands, West Germany, and Japan. Having no cultural affinity for organic drug use and being faced with the effects of drug abuse on their citizens, they advocated stringent controls on the production of organic raw materials and on illicit trafficking.” “Strict control group: These were essentially non-producing and non-manufacturing states with no direct economic stake in the drug trade. The key members were France, Sweden, Brazil, and the Republic of China. Most of the states in this group were culturally opposed to drug use and suffered from abuse problems.” > Does someone quietly consuming a plant without bothering anyone qualify as "degenerate"? Yes. For most people, marijuana makes them worse rather than better at fulfilling their social roles as parents, workers, etc. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I’ve never met one. (Like “functional alcoholics” y’all aren’t as functional as they want us to think.)
- triceratops 2y ago
  You're conflating alcoholics - definitionally people with substance abuse problems - with all cannabis users. Have a think, consider whether that's logical, setting aside your valid emotions about the topic. If a parent can have a glass of wine after the kids are in bed, why not an edible? Workers' productivity is a performance management issue for employers, not something to be addressed with state violence.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    > You're conflating alcoholics - definitionally people with substance abuse problems - with all cannabis users. I’m not conflating them, I’m comparing them. Based on my anecdotal observations, people have less command over their addictive behaviors (whether it’s alcohol or weed) than they think. > If a parent can have a glass of wine after the kids are in bed, why not an edible? Because people don’t have as much control over themselves as you want to believe. People would be better parents if nobody drank. > Workers' productivity is a performance management issue for employers, not something to be addressed with state violence. Worker productivity creates the resources available to take care of the community. That’s not any less true in a modern tax-funded welfare state than in a third world village. When half your income is going to the government, the government (which is just a proxy for the community) has a strong interest in people being productive.
    - triceratops 2y ago
      There's a scary, authoritarian vibe to your entire post.
      - rayiner 2y ago
        My view isn’t authoritarian outside libertarian strongholds like San Francisco. I basically just agree with folks in Sweden or Japan.
rayiner 2y ago
To add an additional point about Hinduism, it seems like a distinction is made between ritual use and recreational use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_and_religion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_and_religion (“In Hinduism, wise drinking of bhang (which contains cannabis), according to religious rites, is believed to cleanse sins, unite one with Shiva and avoid the miseries of hell in the future life. It is also believed to have medicinal benefits and is used in Ayurvedic medicine.[37] In contrast, foolish drinking of bhang without rites is considered a sin.[38]”).

rayiner 2y ago

I think there’s a distinction to be drawn between specific religious use on certain holidays and recreational use of marijuana. But otherwise fair point. > I know you were trying to dispute GP's assertion that cannabis was made illegal in the US as a way to selectively prosecute minorities by pointing out how it's illegal worldwide. The example above might show you how both could be true. But your link suggests that the first point is not true. It categorizes countries into groups based on their positions in the treaty. But the anti-drug groups included many countries besides the US: “Manufacturing states group: This group included primarily Western industrialized nations, the key players being the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Switzerland, the Netherlands, West Germany, and Japan. Having no cultural affinity for organic drug use and being faced with the effects of drug abuse on their citizens, they advocated stringent controls on the production of organic raw materials and on illicit trafficking.” “Strict control group: These were essentially non-producing and non-manufacturing states with no direct economic stake in the drug trade. The key members were France, Sweden, Brazil, and the Republic of China. Most of the states in this group were culturally opposed to drug use and suffered from abuse problems.” > Does someone quietly consuming a plant without bothering anyone qualify as "degenerate"? Yes. For most people, marijuana makes them worse rather than better at fulfilling their social roles as parents, workers, etc. I’m sure there are exceptions, but I’ve never met one. (Like “functional alcoholics” y’all aren’t as functional as they want us to think.)

triceratops 2y ago
You're conflating alcoholics - definitionally people with substance abuse problems - with all cannabis users. Have a think, consider whether that's logical, setting aside your valid emotions about the topic. If a parent can have a glass of wine after the kids are in bed, why not an edible? Workers' productivity is a performance management issue for employers, not something to be addressed with state violence.
- rayiner 2y ago
  > You're conflating alcoholics - definitionally people with substance abuse problems - with all cannabis users. I’m not conflating them, I’m comparing them. Based on my anecdotal observations, people have less command over their addictive behaviors (whether it’s alcohol or weed) than they think. > If a parent can have a glass of wine after the kids are in bed, why not an edible? Because people don’t have as much control over themselves as you want to believe. People would be better parents if nobody drank. > Workers' productivity is a performance management issue for employers, not something to be addressed with state violence. Worker productivity creates the resources available to take care of the community. That’s not any less true in a modern tax-funded welfare state than in a third world village. When half your income is going to the government, the government (which is just a proxy for the community) has a strong interest in people being productive.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    There's a scary, authoritarian vibe to your entire post.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      My view isn’t authoritarian outside libertarian strongholds like San Francisco. I basically just agree with folks in Sweden or Japan.

rayiner 2y ago

To add an additional point about Hinduism, it seems like a distinction is made between ritual use and recreational use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_and_religion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_and_religion (“In Hinduism, wise drinking of bhang (which contains cannabis), according to religious rites, is believed to cleanse sins, unite one with Shiva and avoid the miseries of hell in the future life. It is also believed to have medicinal benefits and is used in Ayurvedic medicine.[37] In contrast, foolish drinking of bhang without rites is considered a sin.[38]”).