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I liked this youtube video that covers the same topic[1]. The US focusing entirely on this strategy to increase fire safety seems obviously stupid to me. As peo

I liked this youtube video that covers the same topic[1]. The US focusing entirely on this strategy to increase fire safety seems obviously stupid to me. As people say in other comments here - Europe and other countries require better fire suppression measures and materials instead of particular egress options. An obvious improvement would be to allow builders to use any combination of these approaches to achieve a minimal level of safety. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdwXQb7CfM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRdwXQb7CfM

TylerE 2y ago
Europe is also where Grenfell Towers happened.
- coryrc 2y ago
  A lot of people from the UK would differ on your description of their country.
  - TylerE 2y ago
    Europe != The EU
  - tailspin2019 2y ago
    Only the ones who are bad at geography :)
    - stuaxo 2y ago
      I wonder what the distribution is by leave / remain vote.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
      It depends on if your definition of "Europe" is purely geographic or it has a political dimension (EU vs not). In the context of building safety regulation and the UK's laxness at that, the political interpretation is definitely valid. "Geography" would be more valid if this was about rock formations or trade routes. If someone says "when it comes to building codes, the UK is no longer in Europe", then everyone knows exactly what is meant. Performative misunderstanding isn't helpful.
      - tailspin2019 2y ago
        Respectfully, I disagree that the definition of "Europe" depends. The UK is in Europe. The fact that we know what they mean by saying the UK is no longer in Europe does not make that statement any more correct. I often see comments from people outside of Europe who think that the UK "left Europe" (not realising the distinction between Europe and the EU). I don't blame them, but I think it's worth pointing out.
        SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
        > not realising the distinction between Europe and the EU Respectfully, I disagree that they are not realising that. They are just using language differently, i.e. "Europe" in a political / legislative context can mean "the EU", i.e. a political / legislative boundary not a geographic one. You can say" they're wrong" if you like, but use of language is more commonly viewed as descriptive not prescriptive: "how language is actually being written and spoken rather than trying to identify a correct way" tl;DR People know what they're saying and you understand it, so what's the issue? what I said in the 1st comment.
        tuukkah 2y ago
        People in the EU and in the UK also say that the UK left Europe. What people say is often not meant literally; that's just not how language works.
      - xdennis 2y ago
        > If someone says "when it comes to building codes, the UK is no longer in Europe", then everyone knows exactly what is meant. Performative misunderstanding isn't helpful. People can work around a lot of mistakes, it doesn't mean it's correct. If I tell you my brother speaks Mexican, you know very well I mean Spanish. Does that mean I shouldn't be corrected?
        SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
        It depends. if the phrase "he/she speaks Mexican" to refer to the Mexican dialect of Spanish is in common use, then the descriptivist position is that no, there is nothing to correct.
  - hinkley 2y ago
    1066
- lalaithion 2y ago
  How would a second stairwell would have helped Grenfell Towers? Residents were told to not evacuate for two hours after the fire started.
  - TylerE 2y ago
    Not saying it would, but a major part of it was supposed safer materials actually being really really unsafe and basically going up like kindling.
    - craigmcnamara 2y ago
      The decorative cyan colored cladding had quite a bit to do with what caused that fire to go our of control with a bonus of cyanide gas when combusted. The cladding left a space between the building that carried the fire up the side of the building like a chimney.
      - tialaramex 2y ago
        Right, but as you can see in the resulting buck passing, everybody says it wasn't their fault that this obviously unsuitable material was used. The people who made it said they hadn't intended it to be for these high rise buildings (if you clad my building in this stuff it would look ugly but the fire danger isn't significant because the building isn't very tall). The people who chose it said it passed fire regulations and so as far as they knew it was OK. The people who installed it say that some third party told them this was OK. The regulators say they thought they'd banned it. Nobody wants to admit "We didn't care that probably poor people will die, we were focused on $$$"
        soco 2y ago
        Whis is only reinforcing the argument that a second stair might have never been built anyway, and even if yes the folks would have been just as stuck there so just as dead.
        HPsquared 2y ago
- stuaxo 2y ago
  The tower itself is concrete, so the building itself wasn't the problem. Lack of maintenance or fitting of sprinklers and firedoors was: the residents had been asking for a while, but Kensington council cares more for its richer residents, so instead what happened was plastic cladding was fitted to make the richer residents not have to have an old tower block spoil their view.
  - jeegsy 2y ago
    > the richer residents not have to have an old tower block spoil their view. I've seen this particular point made a couple of times. Can someone explain how the cladding used affects the view from other buildings?
- zrn900 2y ago
  The UK has been taking the US as an example for a long time - from its Reaganite economics to its deregulation. Greenfell is one result of that.

TylerE 2y ago

Europe is also where Grenfell Towers happened.

coryrc 2y ago
A lot of people from the UK would differ on your description of their country.
- TylerE 2y ago
  Europe != The EU
- tailspin2019 2y ago
  Only the ones who are bad at geography :)
  - stuaxo 2y ago
    I wonder what the distribution is by leave / remain vote.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    It depends on if your definition of "Europe" is purely geographic or it has a political dimension (EU vs not). In the context of building safety regulation and the UK's laxness at that, the political interpretation is definitely valid. "Geography" would be more valid if this was about rock formations or trade routes. If someone says "when it comes to building codes, the UK is no longer in Europe", then everyone knows exactly what is meant. Performative misunderstanding isn't helpful.
    - tailspin2019 2y ago
      Respectfully, I disagree that the definition of "Europe" depends. The UK is in Europe. The fact that we know what they mean by saying the UK is no longer in Europe does not make that statement any more correct. I often see comments from people outside of Europe who think that the UK "left Europe" (not realising the distinction between Europe and the EU). I don't blame them, but I think it's worth pointing out.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
        > not realising the distinction between Europe and the EU Respectfully, I disagree that they are not realising that. They are just using language differently, i.e. "Europe" in a political / legislative context can mean "the EU", i.e. a political / legislative boundary not a geographic one. You can say" they're wrong" if you like, but use of language is more commonly viewed as descriptive not prescriptive: "how language is actually being written and spoken rather than trying to identify a correct way" tl;DR People know what they're saying and you understand it, so what's the issue? what I said in the 1st comment.
      - tuukkah 2y ago
        People in the EU and in the UK also say that the UK left Europe. What people say is often not meant literally; that's just not how language works.
    - xdennis 2y ago
      > If someone says "when it comes to building codes, the UK is no longer in Europe", then everyone knows exactly what is meant. Performative misunderstanding isn't helpful. People can work around a lot of mistakes, it doesn't mean it's correct. If I tell you my brother speaks Mexican, you know very well I mean Spanish. Does that mean I shouldn't be corrected?
      - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
        It depends. if the phrase "he/she speaks Mexican" to refer to the Mexican dialect of Spanish is in common use, then the descriptivist position is that no, there is nothing to correct.
- hinkley 2y ago
  1066
lalaithion 2y ago
How would a second stairwell would have helped Grenfell Towers? Residents were told to not evacuate for two hours after the fire started.
- TylerE 2y ago
  Not saying it would, but a major part of it was supposed safer materials actually being really really unsafe and basically going up like kindling.
  - craigmcnamara 2y ago
    The decorative cyan colored cladding had quite a bit to do with what caused that fire to go our of control with a bonus of cyanide gas when combusted. The cladding left a space between the building that carried the fire up the side of the building like a chimney.
    - tialaramex 2y ago
      Right, but as you can see in the resulting buck passing, everybody says it wasn't their fault that this obviously unsuitable material was used. The people who made it said they hadn't intended it to be for these high rise buildings (if you clad my building in this stuff it would look ugly but the fire danger isn't significant because the building isn't very tall). The people who chose it said it passed fire regulations and so as far as they knew it was OK. The people who installed it say that some third party told them this was OK. The regulators say they thought they'd banned it. Nobody wants to admit "We didn't care that probably poor people will die, we were focused on $$$"
      - soco 2y ago
        Whis is only reinforcing the argument that a second stair might have never been built anyway, and even if yes the folks would have been just as stuck there so just as dead.
      - HPsquared 2y ago
stuaxo 2y ago
The tower itself is concrete, so the building itself wasn't the problem. Lack of maintenance or fitting of sprinklers and firedoors was: the residents had been asking for a while, but Kensington council cares more for its richer residents, so instead what happened was plastic cladding was fitted to make the richer residents not have to have an old tower block spoil their view.
- jeegsy 2y ago
  > the richer residents not have to have an old tower block spoil their view. I've seen this particular point made a couple of times. Can someone explain how the cladding used affects the view from other buildings?
zrn900 2y ago
The UK has been taking the US as an example for a long time - from its Reaganite economics to its deregulation. Greenfell is one result of that.