11 ms·
> The impact isn't merely aesthetic. For one thing, it can be costly to remove graffiti. The cost incurred here is a choice the owner makes when they disagree
by thuuuomas 2y ago
> The impact isn't merely aesthetic.
For one thing, it can be costly to remove graffiti.
The cost incurred here is a choice the owner makes when they disagree with the aesthetics of the graffiti.
- ldjb 2y agoWe're talking about public property here. Many authorities have a 'no tolerance' approach to graffiti. Even if it looks nice, it will be removed. There is a belief that removing graffiti quickly discourages it. If graffiti artists find that their work won't last long, they may be discouraged from doing it in the first place. Aesthetics doesn't really come into it.
- TillE 2y agoI dunno about the entirety of Germany, but I don't think I've ever seen graffiti removed in Berlin, and there's a ton of it. It's fine, nobody cares.
- Symbiote 2y agoGraffiti on trains in Berlin is very quickly removed.
- portaouflop 2y agoHaha thanks for the light chuckle as I wake up
- wiseowise 2y agoIs it fine or public just fed up constantly removing it?
- lloeki 2y ago> There is a belief that removing graffiti quickly discourages it. If graffiti artists find that their work won't last long, they may be discouraged from doing it in the first place. Ephemerality is known, understood, accepted, and even leveraged in art. I don't think this is an efficient deterrent, or even a deterrent at all.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- whilenot-dev 2y ago> There is a belief that removing graffiti quickly discourages it. It's the other way around, if it isn't quickly removed it will be encouraged: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
- Thorrez 2y agoThat's not really the other way around. That's 2 ways of stating basically the same thing.
- whilenot-dev 2y agoI'll have to disagree... the goal is to stop encouragement, rather than to start discouragement - stopping acceleration is not the same as starting deceleration.
- Thorrez 2y agoWhen it comes to acceleration, it's possible to define 0 acceleration. So we can define acceleration and deceleration in relation to that 0 acceleration. What is 0 encouragement/discouragement? It's not obviously easy to define. One definition is doing nothing = 0 encouragement and 0 discouragement. By that definition, not removing graffiti (aka doing nothing) is not encouragement, it's simply doing nothing: a lack of encouragement and a lack of discouragement. Because we haven't agreed on a definition of 0 encouragement and 0 discouragement, saying "decreasing encouragement" and "increasing discouragement" mean basically the same thing.
- whilenot-dev 2y ago> By that definition, not removing graffiti (aka doing nothing) is not encouragement, [...] "Doing nothing" results in encouragement in the broken windows theory: Under the broken windows theory, an ordered and clean environment, one that is maintained, sends the signal that the area is monitored and that criminal behavior is not tolerated. Conversely, a disordered environment, one that is not maintained (broken windows, graffiti, excessive litter), sends the signal that the area is not monitored and that criminal behavior has little risk of detection. In my understanding stopping encouragement is maintenance work, while starting discouragement is social work. And by doing the (simpler) maintenance work a (costlier) social work won't be necessary.
- sircastor 2y agoBut that cost is not paid by the person creating the graffiti. The owner has a cost forced on them. The aesthetic argument here is trying to validate a violent act. A lot of graffiti is beautiful, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay.
- complaintdept 2y agoWhat violent act?
- tsimionescu 2y agoModifying someone else's property, or public property, without consent.
- TallTales 2y agoThis is a fascinating comment. How would you define violence?
- fragmede 2y agonot op but violence is traditionally defined as physical force to cause harm. but now there's financial violence and social media violence and here the message in the graffiti causes harm. eg die techy scum. it's not physically violent, but some think it's helpful to frame it as a non-physical violent act because of the expression of dislike for a particular community. it doesn't cause any grave harm, but everyone who walks by and sees it is affected by it.
- tsimionescu 2y agoViolence has always extended beyond pure physical force. Calling someone a slur to their face, or spitting in their food, or defacing their clothes or home (especially with hateful symbols) would be recognized as forms of violence at many times in history way before modern times. Holding someone at knife or gun point is also very clearly a violent act.
- tpm 2y agoNo, the owner or rather operator (if the carriage is publicly owned) might be legally obliged to remove it just for the carriage identification to be clearly visible, the windows to be clean etc.
- wiseowise 2y agoNice. I'm going to spray a can of paint on your car and explain to judge that "it's thuuuomas's problem now, since he disagrees with aesthetics of his new car color".
- subjectsigma 2y agoThis has got to be the most insane comment in this thread. “Hey, I’m going to hold a gun to your head. If you don’t give me $100 I’ll shoot you. Remember though that the cost incurred here is a choice you’re going to make if you disagree with my actions. I can’t truly force you to do anything…”