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Is there? Lets put a few reasonable requirements down: - Self-sufficient commands that you can store in history, put on wiki page, put inside a script file, Sl

by theamk 2y ago

Is there? Lets put a few reasonable requirements down: - Self-sufficient commands that you can store in history, put on wiki page, put inside a script file, Slack to your friends, store in configuration, etc... - Variety of execution methods: local computer, remote via ssh, jupyter-like notebook, remote via something else (like AWS SSM), CI runner, ssh which launches SSM session which connects over serial port, cron-like periodic schedulers, starting commands in your Go program etc... Every method should be supported automatically with no effort from developer. - Output could be interactive (possibly with some reprocessing like tmux/screen does) or stored (like CI/cron execution). It is possible to parse output to get relevant details. Even if you start from scratch, what can you design to fit this pattern? You'll get something very close to existing state - applications that take command lines, character-based input/output streams with some sort of formatting sequences. Sure, if I could design from scratch I'd standardize on _one_ TERM, make escape sequences easier to parse (longer and common start/end chars), fix extended keys/numpad mess, redesign the CLI defaults of the few tools, create common command-line completion interfaces... but the overall idea will be the same. (And if you don't care about the three requirements above, then go with HTML or native UI! There are tons of them and they are well supported. But I don't see the point of retrofitting HTML-like functionality to exiting terminals)

9dev 2y ago
There definitely are more options than applications reading and writing character streams, you’re just not even considering them because you’re too entrenched in the environment you’re familiar with. Take Powershell for example; the syntax may be horrible, but the way it passes structured data is truly different and way ahead of classic UNIX shells. The design space is huge; just dismissing any possible improvements before even sitting down and thinking properly is frankly not a good strategy.
- theamk 2y ago
  If the design space is so huge, how about giving some examples, instead of insulting people who disagree with you? Surely you'll be able to do so, while satisfying the requirements I listed? Because Powershell doesn't satisfy them. You are not going to save Powershell object stream yo CI output or provisioner logs. You are not going to send objects over SSH, or over web console, or over BMC-emulated serial port. In all of those cases it's going to be good old stream of characters, with the occasional control sequence from more advanced programs. You can have whatever rich datatypes inside your application (powrshell isn't the first, I remember reading about LISP shells back in 2000's), but at some moment you have to talk with other systems, and that's when you will have to switch to character streams. (that said, the current escape sequences could use lots of improvement. That's not going to change fundamental concept though)

by theamk 2y ago

9dev 2y ago

There definitely are more options than applications reading and writing character streams, you’re just not even considering them because you’re too entrenched in the environment you’re familiar with. Take Powershell for example; the syntax may be horrible, but the way it passes structured data is truly different and way ahead of classic UNIX shells. The design space is huge; just dismissing any possible improvements before even sitting down and thinking properly is frankly not a good strategy.

theamk 2y ago
If the design space is so huge, how about giving some examples, instead of insulting people who disagree with you? Surely you'll be able to do so, while satisfying the requirements I listed? Because Powershell doesn't satisfy them. You are not going to save Powershell object stream yo CI output or provisioner logs. You are not going to send objects over SSH, or over web console, or over BMC-emulated serial port. In all of those cases it's going to be good old stream of characters, with the occasional control sequence from more advanced programs. You can have whatever rich datatypes inside your application (powrshell isn't the first, I remember reading about LISP shells back in 2000's), but at some moment you have to talk with other systems, and that's when you will have to switch to character streams. (that said, the current escape sequences could use lots of improvement. That's not going to change fundamental concept though)