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Who Wants 30k Used Teslas?
- type_Ben_struct 2y agohttps://archive.ph/shrmq https://archive.ph/shrmq
- supportengineer 2y ago>> $13,078.58 to fix a quarter-size hole Years ago I read this advice "Find an under-served market and serve it cheaply." There's an opportunity here for a 3rd party to service and repair Teslas at a reasonable price.
- devmor 2y agoI would imagine there’s a major blocker here or it would already exist. My bets are on supply chain or Tesla refusing to honor warranties if you get work done elsewhere.
- akira2501 2y agoTesla can void your warranty at any time. Tesla can remotely disable features on their vehicles. It's a tough job repairing something that you then cannot guarantee in any way.
- jgalt212 2y agoSo can Apple, but people get iPhones fixed all the time. Of course, a car is 40-80X more expensive than a phone, so stakes are lower for someone seeking out a non-licensed repair shop. But it probably comes down to right to repair, and can Tesla be shown as impeding this right. My guess, is yes. But I also think, as usual, the authorities are reluctant to penalize Elon. He makes such a stink about such things, they'd rather penalized John Deere.
- from-nibly 2y agoCan apple really reach into your device and just shut it off remotely? Cause tesla can.
- ceejayoz 2y agoYes. https://support.apple.com/en-us/102541 https://support.apple.com/en-us/102541 > With Activation Lock, your Apple ID password or device passcode is required before anyone can turn off Find My, erase your Mac, or reactivate and use your Mac. Even if you erase your Mac remotely, Activation Lock can continue to deter others from reactivating your Mac without your permission. All you need to do is keep Find My turned on and remember your Apple ID and password.
- marssaxman 2y agoSounds like the first job for any repair shop will be disabling Tesla's root access!
- fragmede 2y agoWhich, like, someone should sue Tesla for violating the CFAA when they do that. If you bought the car and you own it, Tesla remoting in and changing things on your car is a CFAA violation.
- mrguyorama 2y agoIndeed, if there's no second source OEM provider of compatible Tesla parts, then the reason for stupid expensive Tesla repairs is simply that Tesla makes more profit/share price improvement from selling a new car over repairing an already sold car. At least until people start to consider them unrepairable.
- themaninthedark 2y ago>>Soon, a body shop found a quarter-size hole in the undercarriage he hadn’t seen before, which led to revelations of deeper issues inside. “The high-voltage battery pack is damaged and could cause extreme safety concerns,” a Tesla technician texted him. Because the hole was “exterior damage,” it wasn’t covered by the warranty, which meant a $13,078.58 repair bill. Looks like selective quoting to me, the quarter sized hole was under the battery pack, which was damaged. Since the hole was punched upward from the ground, it counted as exterior damage. So $13,078.58 to fix the hole and battery pack issue.
- t0mas88 2y agoThat 13k to fix the battery pack is the main problem. Repairs on a Tesla are a lot more expensive than repairs on an average car. That makes a used Tesla a less attractive option, and makes any Tesla more expensive to insure. In the long term that also makes new Tesla's less attractive. Low resale value and high insurance costs both increase the monthly cost of owning one, which is the number the majority of consumers will look at.
- themaninthedark 2y agoHow much does a battery pack cost to manufacture? How much does it cost at retail? Also there is the under armor which was damaged as well. What else is required to remove and reinstall? I could see a new pack costing about 10k retail, probably 7 mfg costs. To remove and install a new one: 0: Lift car on Jacks. 1: Disconnect old pack connector at car. 2: Discharge old pack 3: Remove old under-armor panel 4: Remove old pack from car 5: Install new pack in car 6: Install new under-armor panel 7: Reconnect new pack to car 8: Run diagnostic tests That looks like a 3 to 4 hour job minimum, with specialized equipment dealing with high voltage to me. I think 13k is not a bad price at all.
- t0mas88 2y agoYes, 13k may be a perfectly fine price for the issue. But that means a Tesla does not have as low a cost of ownership as people originally thought. It doesn't need oil changes, but now you have to deal with a low resale value and high insurance costs. The savings on fuel and mechanical maintenance may be lost to that.
- Lx1oG-AWb6h_ZG0 2y agoThere are plenty of reports about how Tesla has made this difficult. Tesla parts are difficult to obtain even for Tesla’s own service centers: there are frequent months-long waits. “Certified” non-Tesla shops get parts at a lower priority, non-certified shops simply cannot order most parts (just basic stuff like bumpers) 0: https://www.reddit.com/r/Insurance/s/fkcTScUDpL https://www.reddit.com/r/Insurance/s/fkcTScUDpL
- NegativeLatency 2y agoWhat if you had 30k or 10k teslas hanging around for parts though?
- getcrunk 2y agoSoftware lock ala apple?
- jeffrallen 2y agoDefinitely, and even with some legitimate reasons. The inverter and the motor are linked by a calibration.
- NegativeLatency 2y agoInteresting, I've seen people using tesla drive motors in electric conversions, so maybe that's easier if they're controlled by some 3rd party hardware, because you're just fighting the motor not the whole car as a system.
- hollerith 2y agoMaybe someone needs to found the Framework Computer, Inc, of electric cars.
- iancmceachern 2y agoI have the skillset and network to design, prototype and source just about any part or assembly. If anyone wants to do this, seriously, reach out.
- porphyra 2y agoIt's not just a quarter size hole. It's a quarter size hole in the high voltage battery pack, which is indeed extremely dangerous and needs specialized equipment and skill to replace.
- xyst 2y agoFrom Teslas own service website: > Only new Tesla parts, Tesla-approved fasteners, and Tesla-approved structural adhesives must be used when performing repairs on Tesla vehicles. https://service.tesla.com/docs/BodyRepair/Body_Repair_Procedures/Model_3/HTML/en-us/GUID-D8AB5994-C3C1-44B9-A392-585E2298719F.html https://service.tesla.com/docs/BodyRepair/Body_Repair_Proced... What’s not clear: how much are those “new Tesla parts”? Tesla uses some scary language to make it seem like they are the only ones that can repair their product. They have taken a page out of the Apple playbook.
- Y_Y 2y ago> Tesla does not allow the use of any used, recycled, alternative, aftermarket, or third-party replacement parts. Use only new parts ordered directly from Tesla. I didn't read all the was too the fine print, but these statements are patently nonsense. Maybe doing the things they don't like will void your warranty or something, but adhesives don't get stickier just because Tesla decrees it. They may well advise you on what to do, or even try to fuck up your car's software if they detect you've defied them, but they can't just issue commands or make statements about the impossibility of letting someone else fix your bumper.
- bombcar 2y agoIt wasn't to fix the hole, it was damage to the battery that wasn't covered by the warranty because of the hole.
- rpcope1 2y agoThis is one of the reasons I disliked Tesla from the outset. Other manufacturers have various levels of challenge on repairs, but from the very moment they released the model S, they have been extremely aggressive at making any sort of third party repair impossible. Even connecting to the vehicle diagnostics got the vehicle to phone home and people at Tesla to actively subvert your attempt to learn or diagnose anything. For as much shit as we talk about "being green", making a car harder to fix (and thus much more likely to just get totalled and scrapped when it could ostensibly be fixed and serviced) is about as "anti-green" and anti-consumer as I could imagine.
- bombcar 2y ago$25,000 for a two year old $47,000 car with 70,000 miles already on it may not be that great a deal. A brand new one is that price so you're basically paying 31.5 cents a mile to buy the newer ...
- toomuchtodo 2y agoMiles are irrelevant, they’ll last forever (based on fleet powertrain reliability stats). It’s a great deal if you’re going to drive it until it dies and you need mobility, assuming for whatever reason you don’t qualify for incentives or credits that would get a new one to the used price. (have over 200k miles collectively on three Teslas)
- iancmceachern 2y agoBearings, they have bearings
- toomuchtodo 2y agohttps://www.kbb.com/tesla/wheel-bearing-replacement/ https://www.kbb.com/tesla/wheel-bearing-replacement/ > In theory, wheel bearings could last as long as your Tesla. Unlike oil changes or tire rotations, there’s no standard maintenance schedule for replacing them. I do not disagree that inspections should be done to ensure things that move between motor and road are in good repair, but all vehicles in the used car market experience this. EVs have less moving parts, less than 20 typically for propulsion, leading to higher reliability. When was the last time you had your wheel bearings inspected? Probably never. You know when it’s time to replace them when they fail.
- kgwgk 2y ago> they’ll last forever > You know when it’s time to replace [bearings] when they fail. Fail? They last forever!
- 2y ago
- SilentM68 2y agoThere are better reasons for spending $30,000. For example, a down payment for a home :)
- sigmoid10 2y ago*looks at downpayment for average home in local area Yeah, that's not going to do it. By, like, an order of magnitude.
- julianeon 2y agoI couldn't even put a down payment on an apartment/condo for that amount in my area.
- seventyone 2y agofor a standard 20% downpayment so you aren't screwing yourself over so badly on your mortage, $30,000 only works if your house somehow magically only costs $150,000. Good luck finding that in this market. These days your downpayment needs to be closer to $100k.
- popcalc 2y ago>your house somehow magically only costs $150,000 The rest of the world outside the US exists? 150K gets you a very nice studio/loft in a brick building in central Budapest/Krakow/Belgrade.
- SeanAnderson 2y agolol. The 1bd house I'm renting in SF is on Zillow for $1M. I wish $30k was a down payment.
- mrweasel 2y agoI'm in Denmark, the country with a 150% tax on new cars. I think there's still a discount on electrics though. $30.000 is a lot, I know it's a luxury car, but a new model 3 is still "only" 50.000USD. The discount simply isn't high enough and $30.000 is more than I would want to spend on a new car anyway. I can get a Hyundai i10 for $20.000 which functionally does the exact same thing for me. Sadly it's not electric.
- p0w3n3d 2y agoIf used cars will have software locks and fixing will be prohibited without cloud services their price will drop much quicker after the time of warranty
- lnsru 2y agoThis article is biased in my opinion. Colleague bought BMW with broken gearbox. Warranty covered 2/3 of repair costs. That’s typical mistake when buying nice car and not checking it thoroughly. For electric vehicle it is even more important. I would lift the car during test drive in random repair shop, go by myself under it and check the bottom. Battery is most expensive part there. And most fragile too. And also easy to check without special tooling. I also wouldn’t buy a car with 70000 miles on it. That’s the mileage when things start to fail. It is also out of warranty. Battery might be still under warranty, but that’s not very useful. Tesla solved these issues in the past. Other thing is that these were rental cars. So they were treated extremely poor for years. The buyer of Herz Tesla should be well prepared for all possible expensive surprises. Edit: I wouldn’t buy a car made after 2005 with 70000+ miles on it. The family cars made before outlived the ones made after 2015. 7 data points at the moment. Edit2: CAN-Bluetooth dongle with an app isn’t really a tool. Not having it while buying a car for 25k is a gamble. Add also tool for paint thickness measurement. Everything else is naive. Nobody sells very good car for a very good price.
- jeffrallen 2y ago> (batteries are) easy to check without special tooling. What on earth are you taking about? Physical damage to the case, maybe. But physical damage to the cells, no way. Water damage from the cooling system will only be inside. And battery capacity is only visible in the battery management system. Which is only available from CAN with vendor-specific software.
- ProfessorLayton 2y ago>I also wouldn’t buy a car with 70000 miles on it. That’s the mileage when things start to fail. California, the state with the highest EV sales especially for Tesla, mandates that batteries be warrantied for 10y/150k miles. 70k leaves most of the warranty intact.
- MisterTea 2y ago> I also wouldn’t buy a car with 70000 miles on it. That’s the mileage when things start to fail. In an ICE sure (and that is even questionable, had a '96 Honda Civic go 300+k) but what wears on an EV aside from batteries? Bearings? There's so much less mechanical crap that an EV should really outlast a gas bunner by decades. Then again all the plastic crap and junk electronics have crippled automobiles.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y agoWhat's the cost of a new battery?
- thebruce87m 2y agoMost of them would still be in warranty: > 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period. https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty In reality, an NMC battery would last 1000+ cycles. If you get 200 miles to a charge then you’re looking at 200k miles. LFP will be 2 - 3x this.
- bearjaws 2y agoSome of these used Tesla prices are enticing, with gas at $4 a gallon a Tesla Model 3 gets just over 100mpg (equivalent obviously).
- sonicanatidae 2y ago[dead]
- 01100011 2y agoHow do you assess the battery health?
- mschuster91 2y agoIf there is one thing Tesla is famous for it is their battery life expectancy...
- autoexecbat 2y agoIt really depends a lot on the input electricity price too, not just the gas price
- fragmede 2y agoSpecifically, in San Francisco and parts of Europe, the cost of electricity is high enough, or approaching it, that it's not actually cheaper to pay for electricity instead of gasoline. Somewhere in the neighborhood of $0.70/kWh vs $5/gallon of gas, someone else can go deeper into the math.
- paulddraper 2y ago> If anything happens to a Tesla, then the bill is too high. That is the fundamental takeaway. These are specialized machines, with specialized parts, and specialized repairs. --- And to be fair, this isn't all that much different than other luxury cars like BMWs and Audis.
- resource_waste 2y ago>Unquestionably a great piece of hardware You must watch a LOT of advertising. I imagine you are fans of Disney and Nintendo too? Maybe throw in some Samsung if you arent too infatuated with Apple.
- paulddraper 2y agoModel S does 0-60 in 1.99s. A Lamborghini is 3s+. I'll call that an amazing piece of hardware.
- resource_waste 2y agoYes electric motor go vroom. Why are you comparing different hardware?
- dgfitz 2y agoI work on my BMW all the time. Never have an issue getting a part, and no the parts are not 2-3x more expensive than an equivalent non-BMW part. People kept telling me that, they were wrong. And by work on I mean I've done the intercooler, downpipe, brakes, rotors, calipers, plugs, injectors, and silly things like airfilters, fluids, etc.
- kllrnohj 2y agoThe horror stories are always about people seeing how cheap used 7 series or similar are and not realizing that repair costs are still going to be reflective of the MSRP, not the now drastically depreciated used price.
- aantix 2y agoAre you able to run FSD on these used Teslas? I currently do not own one. But FSD 12.3.6 looks amazing. I'm not sure why Waymo or Mercedes gets ranked ahead of Tesla - clearly, Tesla is a few years ahead of them in terms of self-driving technology.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y agoFSD is on major version 12 and still doesn't work as advertised?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- CoastalCoder 2y agoSometimes I wonder how much careful / research is appropriate for questions like this. To wit: For me, thinking in broad strokes seems sufficient here: (1) Tesla has a reputation for lengthy, extremely costly repairs. (2) Tesla is led by Musk, whose leadership strikes me as erratic and unreliable in the best of times. (3) Tesla seems to be in financial trouble, which I'd expect to only exacerbate (1) and (2). (4) Tesla just called into question the availability of their U.S. charging network, which reminds me that a Teslas are local-only vehicles unless you're confident there's a charging network to support your trips. (5) I can't afford to spend $30k on an unreliable vehicle, nor a reliable one with $5k+ repairs. I'm curious if looking at this more carefully would change my mind. And if so, is there a way I could have recognized that before contenting myself with the broad strokes mentioned above?
- ripjaygn 2y ago> I can't afford to spend $30k on an unreliable vehicle, nor a reliable one with $5k+ repairs. Then you should get a Tesla, because once you get past the FUD on HN, Reddit and the media, in the real world Consumer Reports found that Teslas had the lowest repair and maintenance costs compared to other car brands. Yes, even Toyota and Honda. https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-names-cheapest-cars-to-maintain/ https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-names-cheapest... The submitted story is passing off one anecdote as if it applies to all used Teslas sold by Hertz, and it already showed up multiple times on HN's front page from different media outlets. You can make a story out of that for any brand, but curiously there's a pattern there. There's a lot of anti-EV propaganda in the media and social media in the past year. And it's working very well, given comments like yours.
- diebeforei485 2y agoCan Tesla authorized mechanics offer pre-purchase inspections for cars that are sold by third parties? I know Tesla themselves do it if you buy a pre-owned car from them.
- csours 2y agoDisclosure: I work for GM, this is solely my own opinion --- This article doesn't mention it, but the other problem Hertz has is that Tesla has lowered the price of their vehicles. This is great news for new buyers, not so much for people who want to trade or sell their vehicles. Incidentally, this is why other OEMs offer cash-back or other limited time or limited scope offers - they can have less effect on trade-in values. --- Incidentally, this cycle of downward pressure on new vehicle price is a partial cause of GM's decline. GM had a goal to remain the #1 North American automaker by sales volume - to do this they sold a lot of cars to rental fleets - those rental cars come back on the market after about 1 year at a discount and compete with new car sales and put downward pressure on price. Again, if you are a consumer looking for a low price, this is nice; if you are looking to run a company that can invest in product engineering, not so much.
- paulddraper 2y agoAren't used car prices high? Have they actually come back down?
- fidla 2y agoThey're still selling these beat up cars at around $27,000 each. Seems criminal to me
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoRelated: How Hertz’s bet on Teslas went sideways https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39928913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39928913 Hertz is ditching even more electric cars https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40183174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40183174
- fmajid 2y agoThey will probably go to Ukraine: https://www.wired.com/story/why-teslas-totaled-in-the-us-are-mysteriously-reincarnated-in-ukraine/ https://www.wired.com/story/why-teslas-totaled-in-the-us-are...