4 ms·

Clojure code is 700 lines, and pretty easy to grasp by anyone who've used Lisp before. We would have to implement a lot of C code to speed up both Git and Svn b

Clojure code is 700 lines, and pretty easy to grasp by anyone who've used Lisp before. We would have to implement a lot of C code to speed up both Git and Svn bindings. And I seriously doubt that we would be able to debug this in a reasonable amount of time. Clojure caching took me like a month max.

trimbo 14y ago
Lines of code is the new form of premature optimization. A C solution is better in performance and compatibility, but you've prematurely optimized on lines of code as your deciding factor (based on you mentioning it in the article, and again here). Obviously, you can choose whatever you like, it's your company. I'm just explaining what the best solution was for the many students and young programmers who visit hacker news. Clojure is not it for all the reasons I mentioned. And if people think C is hard, practice it. Read Zed's book and do Project Euler problems with it until you feel comfortable with it. It's an essential tool everyone must know how to reach for.
- spitfire 14y ago
  They're optimizing for their business value and resources (programmers) available. It might not impress their programmer friends, but it'll impress their accountant.
  - trimbo 14y ago
    > It might not impress their programmer friends, but it'll impress their accountant If impressing accountants is the goal of what we do, then the whole thing should have been outsourced overseas.
  - dsabanin 14y ago
    Well, in my book using Lisp in production is impressive for the best part of my programmer friends :-)
    - spitfire 14y ago
      Two birds, one stone. I think that's what they call in the industry "Experienced". Keep that up.
- paulja 14y ago
  Before rails no-one used Ruby, the parallel implementations of svn and git you mention are heavily used in Eclipse and throughout the Java world. They gain access to all the advantages of the JVM. By using clojure they probably attract a better standard of developer. Why bother introducing a buggy blob of C when they can do it this way.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- mrgoldenbrown 14y ago
  I think you are doing students and young programmers a disservice by implying that there is one "best" solution here, and that you know it. I am assuming you haven't seen the ruby or Clojure code involved, don't work at Beanstalk, don't know the skillset of their team, their budget, strategic plans, or any other one of a bunch of details that determine what is best in a particular situation. If you already know C then perhaps it would be right for you. That does not mean it is right for everyone.
  - trimbo 14y ago
    > I think you are doing students and young programmers a disservice by implying that there is one "best" solution here, and that you know it. I read their requirements in the blog post. They need fast access to SVN and Git internals to store off metadata. Based on that it's really not hard to determine what to use to solve this problem. There may not be one exact right answer (in fact, I suggested two), but there is a direction that makes sense and one that does not. The real disservice to those coming up in this industry is reading blog post after blog post on Hacker News with people looking for "excuses" to use random languages they're interested in playing with. The answer to most of these problems is to use something really boring and straightforward, like C, C++ or Java. I guess I've worked too many places where legacy code becomes a huge burden because one guy wants to play around with X one time. The funny thing is, I see these same guys go onto the next place and do it there.
    - jpeterson 14y ago
      I'm failing to see why Clojure is a bad choice for this problem. It's a general-purpose programming language, just like others that you mentioned. And beyond those, it happens to have the benefits of being more expressive, testable, concise, etc. Can you elaborate on why you think it's a bad choice?
- jhickner 14y ago
  Those same students and programmers should realize that yours is just one opinion among many. Your advice leans toward the "fungible cogs" school, where the capital crime is to expect others to learn something they don't already know. That's still a widely held view, and maybe even a majority, but probably not on HN. (see pg's Beating the Averages essay: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html)
  - trimbo 14y ago
    > Your advice leans toward the "fungible cogs" school, where the capital crime is to expect others to learn something they don't already know. Not following what you mean. Do you mean that I do expect people to learn stuff, or that I don't expect them to learn stuff in order to do their job?
    - fpgeek 14y ago
      > The best tool for this job was to improve the Ruby version by way of C extensions, or write a new C command that does this work for you, linking in the Git and SVN code directly. This has little to no new concepts, is straightforward, and would have given you the best compatibility and performance. Favoring "little to no new concepts" at least suggests a bias against certain kinds of learning. Sometimes learning a new concept is the best way to solve a problem.

trimbo 14y ago

Lines of code is the new form of premature optimization. A C solution is better in performance and compatibility, but you've prematurely optimized on lines of code as your deciding factor (based on you mentioning it in the article, and again here). Obviously, you can choose whatever you like, it's your company. I'm just explaining what the best solution was for the many students and young programmers who visit hacker news. Clojure is not it for all the reasons I mentioned. And if people think C is hard, practice it. Read Zed's book and do Project Euler problems with it until you feel comfortable with it. It's an essential tool everyone must know how to reach for.

spitfire 14y ago
They're optimizing for their business value and resources (programmers) available. It might not impress their programmer friends, but it'll impress their accountant.
- trimbo 14y ago
  > It might not impress their programmer friends, but it'll impress their accountant If impressing accountants is the goal of what we do, then the whole thing should have been outsourced overseas.
- dsabanin 14y ago
  Well, in my book using Lisp in production is impressive for the best part of my programmer friends :-)
  - spitfire 14y ago
    Two birds, one stone. I think that's what they call in the industry "Experienced". Keep that up.
paulja 14y ago
Before rails no-one used Ruby, the parallel implementations of svn and git you mention are heavily used in Eclipse and throughout the Java world. They gain access to all the advantages of the JVM. By using clojure they probably attract a better standard of developer. Why bother introducing a buggy blob of C when they can do it this way.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
mrgoldenbrown 14y ago
I think you are doing students and young programmers a disservice by implying that there is one "best" solution here, and that you know it. I am assuming you haven't seen the ruby or Clojure code involved, don't work at Beanstalk, don't know the skillset of their team, their budget, strategic plans, or any other one of a bunch of details that determine what is best in a particular situation. If you already know C then perhaps it would be right for you. That does not mean it is right for everyone.
- trimbo 14y ago
  > I think you are doing students and young programmers a disservice by implying that there is one "best" solution here, and that you know it. I read their requirements in the blog post. They need fast access to SVN and Git internals to store off metadata. Based on that it's really not hard to determine what to use to solve this problem. There may not be one exact right answer (in fact, I suggested two), but there is a direction that makes sense and one that does not. The real disservice to those coming up in this industry is reading blog post after blog post on Hacker News with people looking for "excuses" to use random languages they're interested in playing with. The answer to most of these problems is to use something really boring and straightforward, like C, C++ or Java. I guess I've worked too many places where legacy code becomes a huge burden because one guy wants to play around with X one time. The funny thing is, I see these same guys go onto the next place and do it there.
  - jpeterson 14y ago
    I'm failing to see why Clojure is a bad choice for this problem. It's a general-purpose programming language, just like others that you mentioned. And beyond those, it happens to have the benefits of being more expressive, testable, concise, etc. Can you elaborate on why you think it's a bad choice?
jhickner 14y ago
Those same students and programmers should realize that yours is just one opinion among many. Your advice leans toward the "fungible cogs" school, where the capital crime is to expect others to learn something they don't already know. That's still a widely held view, and maybe even a majority, but probably not on HN. (see pg's Beating the Averages essay: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html)
- trimbo 14y ago
  > Your advice leans toward the "fungible cogs" school, where the capital crime is to expect others to learn something they don't already know. Not following what you mean. Do you mean that I do expect people to learn stuff, or that I don't expect them to learn stuff in order to do their job?
  - fpgeek 14y ago
    > The best tool for this job was to improve the Ruby version by way of C extensions, or write a new C command that does this work for you, linking in the Git and SVN code directly. This has little to no new concepts, is straightforward, and would have given you the best compatibility and performance. Favoring "little to no new concepts" at least suggests a bias against certain kinds of learning. Sometimes learning a new concept is the best way to solve a problem.