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Yes, Ukraine is under invasion by your country and are taking drastic steps to limit your country's influence, especially given your country's history of suppor
by wumeow 2y ago
Yes, Ukraine is under invasion by your country and are taking drastic steps to limit your country's influence, especially given your country's history of supporting separatism in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.
> But Ukrainian law does not recognize Russians as indigenous to Ukraine, or even as a minority within Ukraine.
Even a majority of the non-Russian-speaking people in Ukraine wouldn't qualify as indigenous according to the law. It only applies to a small number of ethnic groups like the Tatars.[0] Also, "The vast majority of Russophile Ukrainians refuse to categorize themselves as a minority" so why should the law?
> They therefore have no claim to legal protection of their cultural heritage and language, a direct contradiction of Article 10 of the Ukrainian constitution.
Ukraine is currently under martial law due to the invasion. Article 64 lists the articles of the constitution that can't be suspended in this situation and Article 10 is not one of them.[1]
> According to Tamila Tasheva, Zelensky’s representative in Crimea, if it were liberated tomorrow, at least 200,000 residents of Crimea would face collaboration charges, and another 500,000 to 800,000 residents would face deportation
Your country has been moving its citizens into Crimea ever since it was annexed 10 years ago. Again, given your country's history of provoking separatism[2], I wouldn't blame Ukraine for doing this.
> Refat Chubarov, the chairman of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatars, says that more than 1 million people—more than half the current population—will have to leave “immediately.”
Even the indigenous groups don't want you guys there.
Meanwhile, let's check in on how the Ukrainians in occupied territory are doing[3]:
> Artem Petrik lived under Russian rule in occupied Kherson; he says there is no room for dissent in “Novorossiya” or “New Russia”, as these territories are called by the Kremlin, mirroring the situation in mainland Russia. "Everyone was in danger, no one was safe”, says Petrik. “The primary targets were the families of Ukrainian soldiers, police officers, judges, journalists, teachers, and of course scientists, primarily historians. If you want to support or demonstrate Ukrainian identity, you will have big problems: imprisonment, death, torture.” Natalia Rudych describes how tightly the Russian army controlled her city of Melitopol. “Markets were guarded by FSB personnel and soldiers. They would stop and check people whenever they wanted”, she remembers. “Many people were simply abducted in the middle of the street. You could be walking down the street, and you could be taken away without any explanation and driven in an unknown direction. Many acquaintances who were taken have not been located to this day. And this was happening very frequently.”
> Former Kherson policeman Anton Lomakin was imprisoned for four months when Russia took over the city. Lomakin says he was tortured in detention. “They simply took the bottom of the T-shirt up on my head, like a mask, completely covering my face. Three or four people stood aside and held my arms and legs. One of them took the water… a six-litre plastic bottle, and slowly started pouring this water on my face”, he remembers speaking from the town of Odesa, where he now lives
> Zasherynska says she witnessed the transfer of children from the nearby Oleshky state care home, which in October 2022 was one of the orphanages from which Russian forces reportedly took children and moved them to Crimea and into Russia. “Everything happened in front of my eyes”, she remembers. “How they were taking out children on the boats- packed boats, one after another. Big buses were waiting, and police surrounded the quay in Oleshky to make sure there were no strangers around. They were meeting these children and taking them to Crimea.
> Access to property in occupied Ukraine is limited to Russian nationals, which the Kremlin justifies for security reasons. Those who flee occupation know that in most cases, they will lose forever all they can’t take with them. Natalia Rudych watched helplessly from Kyiv the video stream of security cameras on her building showing a car pulling up and people entering her home in Melitopol. “They took everything from the house. Everything that could be taken was taken. We spent fifteen years building that house, thinking we were building it for a lifetime.” She claims she has since heard from her former neighbours that both her house and her business were taken over by FSB personnel, and that her property has been resold several times
…and so on and so on.
Ivan, go home.
[0] https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2021-08-02/ukraine-new-law-determines-legal-status-of-indigenous-people/ https://www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2021-08-02/ukr...
[1] https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine,_2004 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine,_2004
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sloviansk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sloviansk
[3] https://investigations.news-exchange.ebu.ch/russification-in-occupied-ukraine/index.html https://investigations.news-exchange.ebu.ch/russification-in...
- protomolecule 2y ago[flagged]
- wumeow 2y ago> You don't seem to argue with the statement that if Russia were to retreat an ethnic cleansing would follow. Too bad you also seem to find it an acceptable solution. Booting out people who have illegally invaded and occupied your land is not ethnic cleansing. > Which means that people whose ancestors have lived there for hundreds of years don't qualify as indigenous. Yes, which applies equally to Russians and non-Russians, so you can't complain the law is some slight against Russians. > It didn't start with the invasion. It didn't even start in 2014. In 1991 George Bush Sr. was talking in Kiev about "suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred"[0]. The full quote is "Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred." He was referring to the wars between ethnic groups in Yugoslavia that occurred as the country broke apart. It was warning Ukraine not to do something similar. > It's on the order of magnitude fewer people than the Ukraine would deport according to the article. And no, Russia hasn't been moving people there, those who moved moved voluntarily attracted by the climate and the job opportunities -- there is a lot to build in Crimea after 25 years of punishing neglect by the Ukraine. The exact number of settlers is an estimate, the point is they would need to leave. Your country has been pumping billions of dollars in subsidies into Crimea with the express purpose of attracting mainlanders, among other government-sponsored incentives. It's an explicit goal in occupied Crimea's development plans. No one is being loaded up on train cars and shipped to Crimea, but your government clearly wants Russians to move there and is working to make that happen. > Mejlis isn't representative of Crimean Tatars and their calls for ethnic cleansing of Russians are repugnant. Here is what a pre-war poll showed: "Support for joining Russia remains very high (86 percent in 2014 and 82 percent in 2019) — and is especially high among ethnic Russians and Ukrainians. A key change since 2014 has been a significant increase in support by Tatars, a Turkic Muslim population that makes up about 12 percent of the Crimean population." [1] There is a constant torrent of propaganda coming from Moscow directed at well-meaning but gullible Russians. (The survey was conducted by a Russian company and couldn't even use the word "annex" because it's banned. And even if it was correct, support for joining Russia is not a justifiable reason for forced annexation) > As you said, there is a war going on. It's an unprovoked invasion and colonization by your country. You can twist yourself into pretzels trying to justify it but that's what it is. > It's bizarre that the transfer of orphans from the war zone to safety you list as something bad. This is a disgusting excuse. Its a war zone that your country has created, and it's not about their safety, otherwise they would be transferred back to Ukraine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-... https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/posterchild-russias-removal-ukraine-orphans-says-he-was-coached-threatened-2024-03-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/posterchild-russias-rem... > That's hardly true. There is a constant torrent of propaganda coming from Kiev directed at well-meaning but gullible Westerners. It is true: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/04/01/new-crimean-land-law-banning-foreign-ownership-comes-into-force-a73443 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/04/01/new-crimean-land-l...