3 ms·

Thanks for bringing these topics up, I find the raft of evidence quite compelling. I also find it quite interesting how much pushback on alternative hypotheses

by nurple 2y ago

Thanks for bringing these topics up, I find the raft of evidence quite compelling. I also find it quite interesting how much pushback on alternative hypotheses there is from the mainstream scientists. I even attempted to have a conversation with GPT4 about the possibility that ancient humans created the pyramids, and it told me I was being RACIST! Like, what? The thing that sells me, besides the erosion, is the absolutely astonishing artifacts that were left behind. There is no way I could be convinced that hand-driven bronze tooling was cutting diorite to a precision we would struggle to meet today, carving schists so thin you can see light pass through, absolutely perfect symmetry, and creation of granite stoneware with multivariate surface geometry that we'd be unable to do without a precision-destroying tool change. I find the tool marks on the partially excavated obelisk in Aswan particularly compelling. It's like they had technology that could scoop granite like warm ice cream. One person doing somewhat interesting research here and other ancient sites is Ben from Uncharted-X. He brings a lot of first-hand content and analysis of areas many can not access, though it is pretty light on conclusions (probably for the best). As an example, this geometric analysis of a pre-dynastic vase carved from granite belies the capabilities of a forgotten generation of this planet's inhabitants: https://unsigned.io/log/2023_02_24_Initial_Geometric_Analysis_of_the_Pre_Dynastic_Vase.html https://unsigned.io/log/2023_02_24_Initial_Geometric_Analysi...

roywiggins 2y ago
> The thing that sells me, besides the erosion, is the absolutely astonishing artifacts that were left behind. There is no way I could be convinced that hand-driven bronze tooling was cutting diorite to a precision we would struggle to meet today, carving schists so thin you can see light pass through, absolutely perfect symmetry, and creation of granite stoneware with multivariate surface geometry that we'd be unable to do without a precision-destroying tool change. The explanation is pretty simple: with sufficient effort and skill, it's possible to produce extraordinary works of precision. You cannot underestimate what people can do with sufficient patience and expertise. However, each artifact is going to be different, because they're hand-made. If you found half a dozen objects that matched each other to extreme precision, you'd have a more serious case- that's the sort of thing you expect to need machine tools for. One very good way to debunk this stuff is to look at the best stuff that came out of the Renaissance: we know, for certain, that they weren't carving that stuff with power tools.
- nurple 2y ago
  So your view is that these pieces are modern forgeries? It's _maybe_ possible we could create something like this with today's machinery, but if you're saying some ancient person with enough time could create these, it's just not the case. It's not just that I don't believe a determined human can do amazing things, but it's just impossible to create the precision these cuts show without measurement tools almost more precise than we have the capability to make today. There were thousands of vases like this found beneath the bent pyramid.
- mikhailfranco 2y ago
  Three of the most amazing sculptures you will ever see, all produced in 1753 AD ±1 year, and all in one small chapel in Naples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappella_Sansevero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappella_Sansevero
mc32 2y ago
I think we have to take into consideration the "entertainment" aspect of lots of these theories. Like UFO theories, such and such monster, bigfoot, etc., they are for entertainment. People make money off of these things. The more plausibility and uncertainty they add, the more money they make. Some suffer from delusion as well. Archeology and Paleontology have evidence for things millions of years ago, yet do not have evidence for Ancient advanced civilizations.
- sampo 2y ago
  > Like UFO theories, such and such monster, bigfoot, etc., they are for entertainment. Many astronomers and physicists have engaged in speculations about extraterrestrial life. They also use some radio telescope time for SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) projects.
  - mc32 2y ago
    Extra-terrestrial life does not mean Alien Vehicles at super-light speed darting in and out of the atmosphere or nerosphere. It means looking for signs of life forms on other planets or planetary systems. We could have alien life on Mars, Io, extra-solar planets, etc. They search for that.
tootie 2y ago
I can't find the video, but I recall watching this on TV when I was younger. They found an ancient abandoned quarry site in Egypt (same one?) and brought in someone to test cutting and drilling granite with copper tools and it worked. The trick is using sand in between the copper and the granite. Here's some still photos and captions: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/obelisk/cutting.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/obelisk/cutting.ht... The thing that made Ancient Egypt so special and so historically significant isn't that they had amazing technology. It's that they built a coherent culture, religion, language and government. The vast construction projects they undertook were achievable because they could field massive armies of laborers and keep them provisioned for years. They built these massive structures by dint of having lots of food and secure borders.
- nurple 2y ago
  It actually didn't work. They were barely able to scar the surface with a jagged janky cut after many hard hours of hard work, and they weren't even attacking the hardest types of stone we see things created from. It's just not possible these tools were used to create the amazingly accurate pieces you find in Egypt, fashioned in some of the hardest materials we know.
  - tootie 2y ago
    https://youtu.be/zoOCcrgWkIA?si=qfsrmduoc7qgzSp7&t=188 https://youtu.be/zoOCcrgWkIA?si=qfsrmduoc7qgzSp7&t=188 He cuts it pretty sharp here. And then shows a technique for smoothing imperfections. Also a lot of the stones weren't actually cut perfectly. Only the ones that were on visible surfaces. The technique was probably slow and laborious, but the Egyptians had huge numbers of workers and they spent years or decades on projects. I'm not sure what the counterargument even is. If the Sphinx was built using super ancient metal tools, where are they? And how did Egyptians make granite carvings all over their empire over the span of millenia? They obviously knew how. We know it's possible. We just don't know for sure how they specifically did it and maybe never will. It was only a few years ago that we solved the mystery of Roman concrete.
    - 2y ago

by nurple 2y ago

roywiggins 2y ago

> The thing that sells me, besides the erosion, is the absolutely astonishing artifacts that were left behind. There is no way I could be convinced that hand-driven bronze tooling was cutting diorite to a precision we would struggle to meet today, carving schists so thin you can see light pass through, absolutely perfect symmetry, and creation of granite stoneware with multivariate surface geometry that we'd be unable to do without a precision-destroying tool change. The explanation is pretty simple: with sufficient effort and skill, it's possible to produce extraordinary works of precision. You cannot underestimate what people can do with sufficient patience and expertise. However, each artifact is going to be different, because they're hand-made. If you found half a dozen objects that matched each other to extreme precision, you'd have a more serious case- that's the sort of thing you expect to need machine tools for. One very good way to debunk this stuff is to look at the best stuff that came out of the Renaissance: we know, for certain, that they weren't carving that stuff with power tools.

nurple 2y ago
So your view is that these pieces are modern forgeries? It's _maybe_ possible we could create something like this with today's machinery, but if you're saying some ancient person with enough time could create these, it's just not the case. It's not just that I don't believe a determined human can do amazing things, but it's just impossible to create the precision these cuts show without measurement tools almost more precise than we have the capability to make today. There were thousands of vases like this found beneath the bent pyramid.
mikhailfranco 2y ago
Three of the most amazing sculptures you will ever see, all produced in 1753 AD ±1 year, and all in one small chapel in Naples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappella_Sansevero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappella_Sansevero

mc32 2y ago

I think we have to take into consideration the "entertainment" aspect of lots of these theories. Like UFO theories, such and such monster, bigfoot, etc., they are for entertainment. People make money off of these things. The more plausibility and uncertainty they add, the more money they make. Some suffer from delusion as well. Archeology and Paleontology have evidence for things millions of years ago, yet do not have evidence for Ancient advanced civilizations.

sampo 2y ago
> Like UFO theories, such and such monster, bigfoot, etc., they are for entertainment. Many astronomers and physicists have engaged in speculations about extraterrestrial life. They also use some radio telescope time for SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) projects.
- mc32 2y ago
  Extra-terrestrial life does not mean Alien Vehicles at super-light speed darting in and out of the atmosphere or nerosphere. It means looking for signs of life forms on other planets or planetary systems. We could have alien life on Mars, Io, extra-solar planets, etc. They search for that.

tootie 2y ago

I can't find the video, but I recall watching this on TV when I was younger. They found an ancient abandoned quarry site in Egypt (same one?) and brought in someone to test cutting and drilling granite with copper tools and it worked. The trick is using sand in between the copper and the granite. Here's some still photos and captions: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/obelisk/cutting.html https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/obelisk/cutting.ht... The thing that made Ancient Egypt so special and so historically significant isn't that they had amazing technology. It's that they built a coherent culture, religion, language and government. The vast construction projects they undertook were achievable because they could field massive armies of laborers and keep them provisioned for years. They built these massive structures by dint of having lots of food and secure borders.

nurple 2y ago
It actually didn't work. They were barely able to scar the surface with a jagged janky cut after many hard hours of hard work, and they weren't even attacking the hardest types of stone we see things created from. It's just not possible these tools were used to create the amazingly accurate pieces you find in Egypt, fashioned in some of the hardest materials we know.
- tootie 2y ago
  https://youtu.be/zoOCcrgWkIA?si=qfsrmduoc7qgzSp7&t=188 https://youtu.be/zoOCcrgWkIA?si=qfsrmduoc7qgzSp7&t=188 He cuts it pretty sharp here. And then shows a technique for smoothing imperfections. Also a lot of the stones weren't actually cut perfectly. Only the ones that were on visible surfaces. The technique was probably slow and laborious, but the Egyptians had huge numbers of workers and they spent years or decades on projects. I'm not sure what the counterargument even is. If the Sphinx was built using super ancient metal tools, where are they? And how did Egyptians make granite carvings all over their empire over the span of millenia? They obviously knew how. We know it's possible. We just don't know for sure how they specifically did it and maybe never will. It was only a few years ago that we solved the mystery of Roman concrete.
  - 2y ago