4 ms·

The state cannot stop people from killing themselves, but I don't think it should assist young, non-terminally-ill people in ending their lives.

zamalek 2y ago
Mental illness can absolutely be a terminal condition, she has specified that she has had suicide ideation. A far more significant issue plaguing society is the perception that mental illness is not real illess, not the minuscule amount of people who want to freely control their own destiny.
- rachofsunshine 2y ago
  I'll preface this by saying that: (a) I have suffered from severe mental health issues in the past and struggle with better-controlled ones to this day, (b) I was pretty explicitly suicidal for several years (I still have the note I wrote on my desktop as a reminder; it's something I keep close to my heart as a thing that is precious to me), (c) I very, VERY strongly believe in the idea of mental health as a health problem and not a moral one, largely because of my own experiences, and (d) I agree with you that the failure to recognize (c) is a far larger problem than even poorly-justified assisted-dying would be. ----- All that being said, though, I think there's legitimate reasons for concern here. I absolutely would have said my life was unendurable and that it could never improve, and I would have said that persistently for a long period of time (for around two years, so a substantial chunk of the approval period here). And the claim that my life wasn't going to improve was, in retrospect, a fairly reasonable belief - my life was in bad shape and even if I could talk to myself at the time I'm not sure how I'd ever justify the way it worked itself out. But it did work itself out. Things did turn around, in a way I could never have predicted. My life improved, and in the years since, I have overcome basically every personal issue I thought I never would. That's not to say my life is perfect, by any means, but it's better than - and I use this phrase in its full literal sense - I could have imagined at the time. I suffer(ed) from basically the same spectrum of conditions this woman does. I was roughly the same age. I had tried medical treatments that, while transformative in terms of the way I looked at mental health, had not offered sustained relief (and to this day have never found a medication that works effectively for me). I have no doubt her desire for relief is sincere, because I have no doubt that mine was too. She's quoted in the article as saying: > People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting I can't speak for her. But I think if someone had told me this during the depths of my own worst battles with it, what that would have sounded like to me is "you're not really in this much pain". In that sense, I agree (and would have agreed at the time) that it would be insulting. But, again, while I can't speak for her, I was empirically not thinking straight, in the sense that my perceptions of the world and of myself were distorted. I was trapped in a system of mental processes that rounded "my life is really bad and I can't see any way it gets better" to "my life is unbearable and it is impossible that it ever gets better". I was, objectively, wrong in my predictions of the future and my judgements of myself, and that's not someone else talking, it's me, with the benefit of greater experience. I didn't have the options on the table that she does. But if I had, and things had continued for more years the way they were? I might have taken them. I'm not sure. I know I had a plan for how I would end my life painlessly. I never got to the point of quite executing it, but that was as much a statement about how hard it was for me to do anything at the time than it was a statement about how much pain I was in. And my life came within hours and a lucky roll of the dice of going further down into despair. When I think I might have made that choice, and I think I would have been incorrect to make it, it's hard for me to feel entirely comfortable with her choice as the correct one. Perhaps it's a choice she nevertheless should have the right to make (I think you can make pretty good arguments for that), but the choice you have the right to make, and the choice you should make, and the choice that deserves social endorsement, are different matters.
  - slau 2y ago
    One important thing to remember: Belgium requires the sign off of three medical doctors intimitaly familiar with the case, and they must assert that all courses of treatment have been exhausted, that the patient is incurable, and that the patient is suffering from "unbearable pain", and crucially: that the patient is sound enough of mind to make the request. Making the request itself is grounds for significant psychological involvement. Doctors are opening themselves up for lawsuits for manslaughter if the conditions are not met (see the Tine Nys case[1]). All this to say: it's not just a matter of making the request twice and wham bam thank you ma'am. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51103687 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51103687
    - rachofsunshine 2y ago
      I recognize that, which is why my response is sympathetic concern and not outright opposition. I am sure that everyone involved here thinks they're doing the right thing, and that they're approaching it with the seriousness and gravity the topic deserves. And I think this is a topic on which reasonable compassionate people could disagree. I'm just not sure if the solution here is the correct one.
ramon156 2y ago
So what are they supposed to do?
anonzzzies 2y ago
Mental illness is sometimes worse than physical; I have known multiple people (who did commit suicide) who said they would prefer cancer or sit in a wheelchair then the hell they lived in. I guess it’s hard to image if you never had that or don’t know anyone who had.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  You can induce this state with drugs. Then it will be easy to imagine and understand. If drugs can reproduce this state of mental anguish it is imaginable that someone's brain chemistry might be off in a way where they are in similar constant mental hell.
  - anonzzzies 2y ago
    Yep. A bad mushroom trip would be more than enough to create understanding.
slau 2y ago
As someone who lost one of their best friends to schizophrenia, I can guarantee you it that in his case it was a terminal illness. It was an ugly, dirty battle he slowly lost over the course of the 15 or so years he was diagnosed with it, and his family suffered every step of the way, and well beyond his final moment. Just because a suffering isn’t visible, or doesn’t prevent someone from walking or getting up from a couch doesn’t mean it’s not every little bit as painful as a physical affliction.

zamalek 2y ago

Mental illness can absolutely be a terminal condition, she has specified that she has had suicide ideation. A far more significant issue plaguing society is the perception that mental illness is not real illess, not the minuscule amount of people who want to freely control their own destiny.

rachofsunshine 2y ago
I'll preface this by saying that: (a) I have suffered from severe mental health issues in the past and struggle with better-controlled ones to this day, (b) I was pretty explicitly suicidal for several years (I still have the note I wrote on my desktop as a reminder; it's something I keep close to my heart as a thing that is precious to me), (c) I very, VERY strongly believe in the idea of mental health as a health problem and not a moral one, largely because of my own experiences, and (d) I agree with you that the failure to recognize (c) is a far larger problem than even poorly-justified assisted-dying would be. ----- All that being said, though, I think there's legitimate reasons for concern here. I absolutely would have said my life was unendurable and that it could never improve, and I would have said that persistently for a long period of time (for around two years, so a substantial chunk of the approval period here). And the claim that my life wasn't going to improve was, in retrospect, a fairly reasonable belief - my life was in bad shape and even if I could talk to myself at the time I'm not sure how I'd ever justify the way it worked itself out. But it did work itself out. Things did turn around, in a way I could never have predicted. My life improved, and in the years since, I have overcome basically every personal issue I thought I never would. That's not to say my life is perfect, by any means, but it's better than - and I use this phrase in its full literal sense - I could have imagined at the time. I suffer(ed) from basically the same spectrum of conditions this woman does. I was roughly the same age. I had tried medical treatments that, while transformative in terms of the way I looked at mental health, had not offered sustained relief (and to this day have never found a medication that works effectively for me). I have no doubt her desire for relief is sincere, because I have no doubt that mine was too. She's quoted in the article as saying: > People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting I can't speak for her. But I think if someone had told me this during the depths of my own worst battles with it, what that would have sounded like to me is "you're not really in this much pain". In that sense, I agree (and would have agreed at the time) that it would be insulting. But, again, while I can't speak for her, I was empirically not thinking straight, in the sense that my perceptions of the world and of myself were distorted. I was trapped in a system of mental processes that rounded "my life is really bad and I can't see any way it gets better" to "my life is unbearable and it is impossible that it ever gets better". I was, objectively, wrong in my predictions of the future and my judgements of myself, and that's not someone else talking, it's me, with the benefit of greater experience. I didn't have the options on the table that she does. But if I had, and things had continued for more years the way they were? I might have taken them. I'm not sure. I know I had a plan for how I would end my life painlessly. I never got to the point of quite executing it, but that was as much a statement about how hard it was for me to do anything at the time than it was a statement about how much pain I was in. And my life came within hours and a lucky roll of the dice of going further down into despair. When I think I might have made that choice, and I think I would have been incorrect to make it, it's hard for me to feel entirely comfortable with her choice as the correct one. Perhaps it's a choice she nevertheless should have the right to make (I think you can make pretty good arguments for that), but the choice you have the right to make, and the choice you should make, and the choice that deserves social endorsement, are different matters.
- slau 2y ago
  One important thing to remember: Belgium requires the sign off of three medical doctors intimitaly familiar with the case, and they must assert that all courses of treatment have been exhausted, that the patient is incurable, and that the patient is suffering from "unbearable pain", and crucially: that the patient is sound enough of mind to make the request. Making the request itself is grounds for significant psychological involvement. Doctors are opening themselves up for lawsuits for manslaughter if the conditions are not met (see the Tine Nys case[1]). All this to say: it's not just a matter of making the request twice and wham bam thank you ma'am. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51103687 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51103687
  - rachofsunshine 2y ago
    I recognize that, which is why my response is sympathetic concern and not outright opposition. I am sure that everyone involved here thinks they're doing the right thing, and that they're approaching it with the seriousness and gravity the topic deserves. And I think this is a topic on which reasonable compassionate people could disagree. I'm just not sure if the solution here is the correct one.

ramon156 2y ago

So what are they supposed to do?

anonzzzies 2y ago

Mental illness is sometimes worse than physical; I have known multiple people (who did commit suicide) who said they would prefer cancer or sit in a wheelchair then the hell they lived in. I guess it’s hard to image if you never had that or don’t know anyone who had.

mewpmewp2 2y ago
You can induce this state with drugs. Then it will be easy to imagine and understand. If drugs can reproduce this state of mental anguish it is imaginable that someone's brain chemistry might be off in a way where they are in similar constant mental hell.
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  Yep. A bad mushroom trip would be more than enough to create understanding.

slau 2y ago

As someone who lost one of their best friends to schizophrenia, I can guarantee you it that in his case it was a terminal illness. It was an ugly, dirty battle he slowly lost over the course of the 15 or so years he was diagnosed with it, and his family suffered every step of the way, and well beyond his final moment. Just because a suffering isn’t visible, or doesn’t prevent someone from walking or getting up from a couch doesn’t mean it’s not every little bit as painful as a physical affliction.