5 ms·

Plot and Framework are locked into the Observable ecosystem, which has its own learning curve. Learning D3 offers the best flexibility and control.

by gaws 2y ago

mbostock 2y ago
In what way are these free open-source tools “locked-in” to Observable? Observable Plot is a vanilla JavaScript library that is released under the ISC license and can be used with any style of web development (e.g., React, Svelte, whatever). And likewise Observable Framework is released under the ISC license and you’re able to self-host projects anywhere and develop locally?
- toasted-subs 2y ago
  Can you add the library as a html link. Anything else would be unwise to invest time in learning.
  - ghostly_s 2y ago
    Yes? Examples here: https://observablehq.com/plot/getting-started https://observablehq.com/plot/getting-started
- navaed01 2y ago
  Mike, thank you for D3. It’s had a huge impact on me personally.
- gofreddygo 2y ago
  D3 for me is feature complete. Has been that way for me for years (maybe since v3). Never had a problem, never felt the need to upgrade. Still have a bunch of stuff that just works. Thank you for your effort.
jeffbee 2y ago
This is like saying that a computer without an operating system offers the best flexibility, or that a pile of sand is more flexible than an assembled computer.
- locallost 2y ago
  D3 is not an empty computer. It's a high level library built in a high level language that runs in a browser. You are very very very far away from "metal". Being able to do something in a few clicks or little typing is nice until you need to do something more complicated. Sometimes it's worth actually learning how something basically works. Sometimes it isn't, it's everybody's choice.
  - wisemang 2y ago
    So D3 is not what I’d consider a high-level library. The point of it is to be able to do all kinds of stuff not supported by your average charting solution’s out of the box histograms and whatnot. It’s a great way to make more bespoke visualizations. Of course sometimes you just want to make a damn histogram without reinventing the wheel which is where some of the niceties discussed above come in.
    - locallost 2y ago
      D3 runs in the browser and it manipulates DOM nodes, a very high level abstraction. You can accomplish something with it using SVG, which is again a high level abstraction. You can give it data and it will spit out numbers that you can use to draw something on the screen. You can bind that data to elements and it will keep track of what's entering and what's exiting. You can apply fancy transitions with a line of code! You can make it change an appearance of e.g. a graph by changing the interpolation method. And so on. Sure you have to write code, but it does a lot of things in the background that would take you s lot longer to do yourself. High level is not just "here's a library on top of D3 that you just give data to and you're done, but then you have to cry for days because you need to do something it didn't think of - 80% of use cases". When I used it I didn't get it, but then I took some time, a couple days, to actually understand it and I got a lot more productive. It's a great feeling when instead of thinking in workarounds for a missing configuration option you can think in solutions for the actual task. A lot quicker and more rewarding. I didn't do much computer graphics in my life, some mandatory university classes, but I'd say doing it on the simplest beginner level it was a much different experience.
simonw 2y ago
Plot isn't locked into the Observable ecosystem at all - it's a JavaScript library that you can use independently of everything else there.
bilekas 2y ago
Yeah, I can say from experience of D3 at least, it's very far from locked in. In fact I would ask what library you're thinking of could be less. The community also has helped with some bizarre integrations I was trying to do, into libraries like highcharts for strange reasons etc.
sbarre 2y ago
I'll ignore the part where you're wrong about the lock-in, but to the rest of what you said... Yes? I guess I didn't think it needed to be said so explicitly, but if you are opting into Plot and Framework, you are accepting convention over configuration as they say. And for some situations, that is what you want. If you value flexibility and control above all else, then I agree they may not be for you. But if you value other things, like speed of iteration, or just getting some good data visualizations built without a deep investment in learning underlying concepts, then Plot and/or Framework have definite advantages over doing it all with D3.

Plot and Framework are locked into the Observable ecosystem, which has its own learning curve. Learning D3 offers the best flexibility and control.

by gaws 2y ago

Plot and Framework are locked into the Observable ecosystem, which has its own learning curve. Learning D3 offers the best flexibility and control.

mbostock 2y ago

In what way are these free open-source tools “locked-in” to Observable? Observable Plot is a vanilla JavaScript library that is released under the ISC license and can be used with any style of web development (e.g., React, Svelte, whatever). And likewise Observable Framework is released under the ISC license and you’re able to self-host projects anywhere and develop locally?

toasted-subs 2y ago
Can you add the library as a html link. Anything else would be unwise to invest time in learning.
- ghostly_s 2y ago
  Yes? Examples here: https://observablehq.com/plot/getting-started https://observablehq.com/plot/getting-started
navaed01 2y ago
Mike, thank you for D3. It’s had a huge impact on me personally.
gofreddygo 2y ago
D3 for me is feature complete. Has been that way for me for years (maybe since v3). Never had a problem, never felt the need to upgrade. Still have a bunch of stuff that just works. Thank you for your effort.

jeffbee 2y ago

This is like saying that a computer without an operating system offers the best flexibility, or that a pile of sand is more flexible than an assembled computer.

locallost 2y ago
D3 is not an empty computer. It's a high level library built in a high level language that runs in a browser. You are very very very far away from "metal". Being able to do something in a few clicks or little typing is nice until you need to do something more complicated. Sometimes it's worth actually learning how something basically works. Sometimes it isn't, it's everybody's choice.
- wisemang 2y ago
  So D3 is not what I’d consider a high-level library. The point of it is to be able to do all kinds of stuff not supported by your average charting solution’s out of the box histograms and whatnot. It’s a great way to make more bespoke visualizations. Of course sometimes you just want to make a damn histogram without reinventing the wheel which is where some of the niceties discussed above come in.
  - locallost 2y ago
    D3 runs in the browser and it manipulates DOM nodes, a very high level abstraction. You can accomplish something with it using SVG, which is again a high level abstraction. You can give it data and it will spit out numbers that you can use to draw something on the screen. You can bind that data to elements and it will keep track of what's entering and what's exiting. You can apply fancy transitions with a line of code! You can make it change an appearance of e.g. a graph by changing the interpolation method. And so on. Sure you have to write code, but it does a lot of things in the background that would take you s lot longer to do yourself. High level is not just "here's a library on top of D3 that you just give data to and you're done, but then you have to cry for days because you need to do something it didn't think of - 80% of use cases". When I used it I didn't get it, but then I took some time, a couple days, to actually understand it and I got a lot more productive. It's a great feeling when instead of thinking in workarounds for a missing configuration option you can think in solutions for the actual task. A lot quicker and more rewarding. I didn't do much computer graphics in my life, some mandatory university classes, but I'd say doing it on the simplest beginner level it was a much different experience.

simonw 2y ago

Plot isn't locked into the Observable ecosystem at all - it's a JavaScript library that you can use independently of everything else there.

bilekas 2y ago

Yeah, I can say from experience of D3 at least, it's very far from locked in. In fact I would ask what library you're thinking of could be less. The community also has helped with some bizarre integrations I was trying to do, into libraries like highcharts for strange reasons etc.

sbarre 2y ago

I'll ignore the part where you're wrong about the lock-in, but to the rest of what you said... Yes? I guess I didn't think it needed to be said so explicitly, but if you are opting into Plot and Framework, you are accepting convention over configuration as they say. And for some situations, that is what you want. If you value flexibility and control above all else, then I agree they may not be for you. But if you value other things, like speed of iteration, or just getting some good data visualizations built without a deep investment in learning underlying concepts, then Plot and/or Framework have definite advantages over doing it all with D3.