3 ms·

Cost per shot is only one of the relevant metrics for comparing actual cost-effectiveness. For one example - surface-to-air missiles usually have ranges of 20-

by ajuc 2y ago

Cost per shot is only one of the relevant metrics for comparing actual cost-effectiveness. For one example - surface-to-air missiles usually have ranges of 20-100 km. This device has range of 1 km. So each shot can be orders of magnitued cheaper, but to cover the same ground you'd need 20^2=400 to 100^2=10 000 times the number of these devices compared to the number of missile launchers you need today. And you still would't be able to hit drones that fly too high. Basically it's only a replacement for point-defence AA artillery (which is already pretty cheap to fire), possibly for MANPADS that have 4-5 times the range of this, not for long-range expansive surface-to-air missiles like Patriot, Sea Viper or CAMM.

verdverm 2y ago
It's a component in a layered air defense network. Different tools for different problems, working in concert. This may be good for defending FOBs and important infrastructure against shahed drones and similar
- ajuc 2y ago
  Well, yes, but it's advertised as "replacing million-dollar missiles" which is just false.
  - verdverm 2y ago
    Who's advertising this? The military or the journalist?
    - gwill 2y ago
      it's the headline of the article we're discussing
      - verdverm 2y ago
        Correct, the journalist is stating it "is a replacement" without providing source
  - riku_iki 2y ago
    > Well, yes, but it's advertised as "replacing million-dollar missiles" which is just false. it could replace in that specific scenarios: fighting against cheap but slow drones.
    - ajuc 2y ago
      If you're shooting at a cheap drone with a million-dollar-missile - it's because you don't have anything more appropriate at the right place to defend a high-value target. The appropriate solution right now is AA artillery (Gepard or ZS-23-2 or -4, etc.) or electronic jammers. You don't have them near the high-value target right now because it's simply too expansive to build enough of these to cover all the thousands of kms of frontline and thousands of high-value targets all over the country. So you put them where they are most needed and cover the rest with long-range missiles. I'm pretty sure AA cannon is cheaper to build than this RFDEW device. If you can't build enough AA to defend against drones now - you won't be able to build enough RFDEW either. Yes operating costs will be lower, but initial cost will be higher, so you still won't have enough of them. So you'd still need to use the long-range missiles to deal with the drones that slipped through the gaps. BTW I do hope they can improve the range, but as is it's not going to replace long-range missiles.
      - riku_iki 2y ago
        > I'm pretty sure AA cannon is cheaper to build than this RFDEW device I suspect AA cannon may suffer in accuracy on such ranges trying to target small moving target, because too much physics is involved (wind, bullet drop), from another hand those beaming devices will have near 100% accuracy.
        verdverm 2y ago
        yup, they need to be highly mobile for an environment like Ukraine, where they put flak AA on technicals and use phones on 6' polls to locate shaheds This seems like a good, ship mounted, close range AA option
      - verdverm 2y ago
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
    > see, for example, the US$1.3-2.5 million Sea Viper missile used to take out a US$20,000 drone
    - verdverm 2y ago
      That is an example of a $1M+ missile But where is the connection to that this missile is the one intended to be replaced? Where is the military saying this? I suspect they talk more in terms of expanding the available types of fires they can use depending on the circumstance
  - saltcured 2y ago
    Whether this phrase bothers you or not seems entirely to depend on whether you think replacement means not having to have such missiles on hand at all, versus not having to waste them on specific tasks and therefore not have to manufacture replacements as frequently...?
gus_massa 2y ago
Is it enough to destroy drones?
- verdverm 2y ago
  That's what it's for, depending on how you define "destroy" It fries on board electronics, so could be used against missiles as well, really anything within the effective range / frequency
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
I'd rather a beam of light be fired over a city than a constant stream of projectiles that have to come down somewhere.
alimw 2y ago
I think you are unjustified in squaring those numbers. A system that protects the borders protects the whole territory—so the relationship will surely be more linear than quadratic.
- ajuc 2y ago
  it won't because drones can go higher than 1 km

by ajuc 2y ago

verdverm 2y ago

It's a component in a layered air defense network. Different tools for different problems, working in concert. This may be good for defending FOBs and important infrastructure against shahed drones and similar

ajuc 2y ago
Well, yes, but it's advertised as "replacing million-dollar missiles" which is just false.
- verdverm 2y ago
  Who's advertising this? The military or the journalist?
  - gwill 2y ago
    it's the headline of the article we're discussing
    - verdverm 2y ago
      Correct, the journalist is stating it "is a replacement" without providing source
- riku_iki 2y ago
  > Well, yes, but it's advertised as "replacing million-dollar missiles" which is just false. it could replace in that specific scenarios: fighting against cheap but slow drones.
  - ajuc 2y ago
    If you're shooting at a cheap drone with a million-dollar-missile - it's because you don't have anything more appropriate at the right place to defend a high-value target. The appropriate solution right now is AA artillery (Gepard or ZS-23-2 or -4, etc.) or electronic jammers. You don't have them near the high-value target right now because it's simply too expansive to build enough of these to cover all the thousands of kms of frontline and thousands of high-value targets all over the country. So you put them where they are most needed and cover the rest with long-range missiles. I'm pretty sure AA cannon is cheaper to build than this RFDEW device. If you can't build enough AA to defend against drones now - you won't be able to build enough RFDEW either. Yes operating costs will be lower, but initial cost will be higher, so you still won't have enough of them. So you'd still need to use the long-range missiles to deal with the drones that slipped through the gaps. BTW I do hope they can improve the range, but as is it's not going to replace long-range missiles.
    - riku_iki 2y ago
      > I'm pretty sure AA cannon is cheaper to build than this RFDEW device I suspect AA cannon may suffer in accuracy on such ranges trying to target small moving target, because too much physics is involved (wind, bullet drop), from another hand those beaming devices will have near 100% accuracy.
      - verdverm 2y ago
        yup, they need to be highly mobile for an environment like Ukraine, where they put flak AA on technicals and use phones on 6' polls to locate shaheds This seems like a good, ship mounted, close range AA option
    - verdverm 2y ago
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  > see, for example, the US$1.3-2.5 million Sea Viper missile used to take out a US$20,000 drone
  - verdverm 2y ago
    That is an example of a $1M+ missile But where is the connection to that this missile is the one intended to be replaced? Where is the military saying this? I suspect they talk more in terms of expanding the available types of fires they can use depending on the circumstance
- saltcured 2y ago
  Whether this phrase bothers you or not seems entirely to depend on whether you think replacement means not having to have such missiles on hand at all, versus not having to waste them on specific tasks and therefore not have to manufacture replacements as frequently...?

gus_massa 2y ago

Is it enough to destroy drones?

verdverm 2y ago
That's what it's for, depending on how you define "destroy" It fries on board electronics, so could be used against missiles as well, really anything within the effective range / frequency

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

I'd rather a beam of light be fired over a city than a constant stream of projectiles that have to come down somewhere.

alimw 2y ago

I think you are unjustified in squaring those numbers. A system that protects the borders protects the whole territory—so the relationship will surely be more linear than quadratic.

ajuc 2y ago
it won't because drones can go higher than 1 km