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Last year when I started looking for jobs I landed a job in a company that did consulting services. All looked fine on the outside, but when I joined I found ou

Last year when I started looking for jobs I landed a job in a company that did consulting services. All looked fine on the outside, but when I joined I found out they are doing software for this kind of stalking, and even use AI to classify employees as "productive", "not productive", and other criteria based on their computer's activity. I noped the hell out of there without even having spent a week working for them. The fact that they even accepted those kind of jobs told me our sense of ethics was way too different, and I didn't want to contribute to that. If it were "just" web tracking, then I would be able to (barely) accept it, if a bit reluctantly. But that's more or less where I draw the line. I still haven't found a job since then, and I'm currently barely surviving through freelance gigs. Professionally speaking, leaving that job might have been a mistake; but I still think it was the correct decision.

sanitycheck 2y ago
I'd have done the same, and have done before when I've found myself on client projects related to online gambling (the business model is to milk addicts for everything they have and more, don't listen to anyone who says otherwise). I know if I don't do it someone else will so it doesn't really make a difference - but at least I can retain some sense that I'm not the kind of person who does bad things, and that's worth something. With web tracking you can at least be 'careless' in your implementation and 'accidentally' make it not work very well because most of the time nobody will ever test it properly. No way to get away with that with this "Bossware" stuff, it'll be in active use all the time. Hope you find something better soon.
- quectophoton 2y ago
  > With web tracking you can at least be 'careless' in your implementation and 'accidentally' make it not work very well because most of the time nobody will ever test it properly. And users can normally install tracking blockers, either in browser or DNS-based (in your home's router), to at least prevent some thirdparty stuff from loading, so that's some defense against it. Of course it's not always possible. But the chances that a user can do something against a web service tracking them are still better when compared to an employer's in-device tracking.
  - tracker1 2y ago
    PIhole + Brave + uBlock Origin + Privacy Badger ... I'll deal with the occasional web app not working. More app/site developers should really test to make sure their app works with the ads blocked. When I've worked on public sites, I always tried to make the app degrade gracefully (depending on hidden/reserved element spaces).
    - sanitycheck 2y ago
      I also block this stuff, personally - but I'm not sure I completely buy the argument that it's OK to work on something because technically competent people can circumvent it. For example I wouldn't work on China's Great Firewall (not that they'd ask me to) - even though those with sufficient skill and bravery can penetrate it.
      - tracker1 2y ago
        I didn't suggest, or mean to suggest as much... I mean that when I worked on a public site with ads, I made sure that the site continued to look right and operate when analytics and ads were blocked. Unless you're asserting that every website with ads or any kind of analytics/tracking is evil?
        sanitycheck 2y ago
        Oh, absolutely - sorry if I implied that, I sensed the suggestion of it in the parent comment and clumsily followed on from your response to that part. I completely agree with making sure things work as much as possible and look OK when stuff like that is blocked and even when JS is disabled. Analytics can be useful and ads are a necessary evil for the prevalent web business model. Tracking is, ugh, I guess in theory acceptable with informed consent - though I've tested a couple of those "consent frameworks" that popped up after GDPR etc and even ignoring the dark UI patterns let's just say they didn't stand up well to scrutiny regarding doing what they say they do.
        2y ago
- TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
  > With web tracking you can at least be 'careless' in your implementation and 'accidentally' make it not work very well because most of the time nobody will ever test it properly. I recently struggled with this. My situation was likely different given the outcome. I was able to prevail on both the sense of decency in the client and their marketing firm by explaining the PII ramifications of what they asked for, and was also able to prevail on how their customers would perceive it. Not everyone has the luxury of clients and marketing agencies like that. I wasn’t sure whether or not I did until I tried it. I can’t know for sure until it’s needed whether I would have simply refused. I really wrestled with the idea of not doing my level best work as a technical implementer. I found Kevin Burke’s “Ethics” to be a really great way of working [1]. He based it on an earlier piece by Kyle Kingsbury [2]. [1] https://burke.services/ethics.html https://burke.services/ethics.html [2] https://jepsen.io/ethics https://jepsen.io/ethics
adapiz 2y ago
Thanks to the article I now have the proper word for it: Bossware. I feel reminded of Ploito. It got advertised on HN. 6 months later I'm sure: It was an ad to gain attention. Idk what happened but it seems that the poster and their business owner became very silent 2 months after their pitch. It's still worth to quote the BO > "weed out the lazy and deceitful, thereby forming a healthy and efficient team." It's bossware disguised as a "cool" product to connect teams. You could say it's a Trojan horse. Sure the monitoring is all "optional" but the mentality is baked into the product. For me it's just right to reject every potential company installing bossware alone for your personal health. People burn out under constant monitoring forced to be 100% productive all day. Have a bad day? Sad for you, it lowers your numbers. Sick leave instead? "Oh what a weak person, how unreliable". People with utilizing computers to effectively slave-drive people should be held responsible for the damage they cause. They should pay for the treatment if they drive people into depressions and burnout and neither health insurances or the society.
tracker1 2y ago
I worked through a couple onboarding/marketing projects for a large financial institution several years ago... I finished up my 6 month contract, but felt icky and didn't want to continue beyond that. I also outright refused to work on a project for the RIAA at one time as well.

sanitycheck 2y ago

I'd have done the same, and have done before when I've found myself on client projects related to online gambling (the business model is to milk addicts for everything they have and more, don't listen to anyone who says otherwise). I know if I don't do it someone else will so it doesn't really make a difference - but at least I can retain some sense that I'm not the kind of person who does bad things, and that's worth something. With web tracking you can at least be 'careless' in your implementation and 'accidentally' make it not work very well because most of the time nobody will ever test it properly. No way to get away with that with this "Bossware" stuff, it'll be in active use all the time. Hope you find something better soon.

quectophoton 2y ago
> With web tracking you can at least be 'careless' in your implementation and 'accidentally' make it not work very well because most of the time nobody will ever test it properly. And users can normally install tracking blockers, either in browser or DNS-based (in your home's router), to at least prevent some thirdparty stuff from loading, so that's some defense against it. Of course it's not always possible. But the chances that a user can do something against a web service tracking them are still better when compared to an employer's in-device tracking.
- tracker1 2y ago
  PIhole + Brave + uBlock Origin + Privacy Badger ... I'll deal with the occasional web app not working. More app/site developers should really test to make sure their app works with the ads blocked. When I've worked on public sites, I always tried to make the app degrade gracefully (depending on hidden/reserved element spaces).
  - sanitycheck 2y ago
    I also block this stuff, personally - but I'm not sure I completely buy the argument that it's OK to work on something because technically competent people can circumvent it. For example I wouldn't work on China's Great Firewall (not that they'd ask me to) - even though those with sufficient skill and bravery can penetrate it.
    - tracker1 2y ago
      I didn't suggest, or mean to suggest as much... I mean that when I worked on a public site with ads, I made sure that the site continued to look right and operate when analytics and ads were blocked. Unless you're asserting that every website with ads or any kind of analytics/tracking is evil?
      - sanitycheck 2y ago
        Oh, absolutely - sorry if I implied that, I sensed the suggestion of it in the parent comment and clumsily followed on from your response to that part. I completely agree with making sure things work as much as possible and look OK when stuff like that is blocked and even when JS is disabled. Analytics can be useful and ads are a necessary evil for the prevalent web business model. Tracking is, ugh, I guess in theory acceptable with informed consent - though I've tested a couple of those "consent frameworks" that popped up after GDPR etc and even ignoring the dark UI patterns let's just say they didn't stand up well to scrutiny regarding doing what they say they do.
        2y ago
TheNewsIsHere 2y ago
> With web tracking you can at least be 'careless' in your implementation and 'accidentally' make it not work very well because most of the time nobody will ever test it properly. I recently struggled with this. My situation was likely different given the outcome. I was able to prevail on both the sense of decency in the client and their marketing firm by explaining the PII ramifications of what they asked for, and was also able to prevail on how their customers would perceive it. Not everyone has the luxury of clients and marketing agencies like that. I wasn’t sure whether or not I did until I tried it. I can’t know for sure until it’s needed whether I would have simply refused. I really wrestled with the idea of not doing my level best work as a technical implementer. I found Kevin Burke’s “Ethics” to be a really great way of working [1]. He based it on an earlier piece by Kyle Kingsbury [2]. [1] https://burke.services/ethics.html https://burke.services/ethics.html [2] https://jepsen.io/ethics https://jepsen.io/ethics

adapiz 2y ago

Thanks to the article I now have the proper word for it: Bossware. I feel reminded of Ploito. It got advertised on HN. 6 months later I'm sure: It was an ad to gain attention. Idk what happened but it seems that the poster and their business owner became very silent 2 months after their pitch. It's still worth to quote the BO > "weed out the lazy and deceitful, thereby forming a healthy and efficient team." It's bossware disguised as a "cool" product to connect teams. You could say it's a Trojan horse. Sure the monitoring is all "optional" but the mentality is baked into the product. For me it's just right to reject every potential company installing bossware alone for your personal health. People burn out under constant monitoring forced to be 100% productive all day. Have a bad day? Sad for you, it lowers your numbers. Sick leave instead? "Oh what a weak person, how unreliable". People with utilizing computers to effectively slave-drive people should be held responsible for the damage they cause. They should pay for the treatment if they drive people into depressions and burnout and neither health insurances or the society.

tracker1 2y ago

I worked through a couple onboarding/marketing projects for a large financial institution several years ago... I finished up my 6 month contract, but felt icky and didn't want to continue beyond that. I also outright refused to work on a project for the RIAA at one time as well.