4 ms·

I think it’s fair to say that the covert illegal activities of the US government probably exceed that of any other country by any reasonable measure. And we al

I think it’s fair to say that the covert illegal activities of the US government probably exceed that of any other country by any reasonable measure. And we also manufacture and ship weapons all over the world, including to horrible regimes like Saudi Arabia. We are currently about to ship over $1 billion in weapons to a country actively perpetrating a genocide. So yeah, you’re right. It’s not even close. It’s much more extensive. We are however more concerned with hiding those activities. We’re a “democracy” after all.

n4r9 2y ago
Russia, Iran and China match or outdo the US in all of these. I'm no fan of the US at all, but to claim that they are worse than those countries is absurd.
- chomskyole 2y ago
  Do you have any data supporting this? The five largest weapon manufacturers are all from the US [1]. The US army is bigger than the next ten-ish armies together by budget [2] (I eyeballed that one). The US has a rich history of propping up extremist to take over democratically elected governments and supported the killing of millions of civilians. And they gave amnesty to some of the worst criminals from Germany and Japan after WW2 in order to give them jobs after the war to make use of the "knowledge" these criminals gained during their crimes. Honestly, I can't see any country competing with the US on this one. Even if there would have been intent, they would still lack scale.... [1] https://www.statista.com/chart/12221/the-worlds-biggest-arms-companies/ https://www.statista.com/chart/12221/the-worlds-biggest-arms... [2] https://www.globalfirepower.com/defense-spending-budget.php https://www.globalfirepower.com/defense-spending-budget.php
  - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
    Yeah I suspect this person is immersed in western news and just hears all about “the bad guys”, but I wonder what the USA looks like to someone in those places. I appreciate your sharing of links. I didn’t have the energy to dig up a bunch of data, but the note about military expenditures supports the point nicely.
    - kolinko 2y ago
      At least in Poland, we appreciate USA’s involvement (and spending) in our region greatly. Ukraine also doesn’t mind, obviously.
      - n4r9 2y ago
        Right, the above comment neglects to differentiate whether the exports are to countries that use it in a completely justifiable manner.
        chomskyole 2y ago
        As shown in my other answer, neither have you shown that the points matters. The scale of the US weapons program and military which outsizes any other countries definitely still supports the main point made. That some parts of the world appreciate the US activity has no bearing on criticism from parts of the world that do not appreciate it, as I'm sure you'd agree.
  - n4r9 2y ago
    > The five largest weapon manufacturers are all from the US The question is not the absolute value of exports, but how much is exported to problematic regimes, and how this compares to the other countries I mentioned. The US's most problematic exports are to Saudi and Qatar - due to the likely human rights violations in Yemen - and Israel - due to the same in Palestine. Collectively, in 2022 this was around £3 billion in arms exports [0]. That's the most recent data I can find. The vast majority of the remainder is to countries like Japan or Ukraine, who's military activities are much more justified. Iran's most obvious problematic arms exports are to Russia, which is prosecuting an illegal invasion of Ukraine. It also exports arms to Sudan and North Korea, and funds Hamas in Palestine and Houthi rebels in Yemen. A major difficulty here is that international sanctions force a lot of the deals to be done covertly. Russia, for example, is struggling to pay for anything in cash and is known to have resorted to paying in gold. However, leaked documents from hacks into the Iranian Revolutionary Guard servers suggest that Russia has recently paid around $1.8 billion for Shahed drones alone from Iran [1]. I admit that leaked docs are hardly the most verified source of information, but if they are anywhere near accurate, then Iran is absolutely funding global atrocities at a rate comparable to the US. > The US has a rich history of propping up extremist to take over democratically elected governments Agreed, but look also at Russia's activities in Afghanistan, Belarus, Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, Moldova... . Look at what China has done to Hong Kong, and how it funds oppressive regimes in Latin America and Africa. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/248552/us-arms-exports-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/248552/us-arms-exports-b... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2024/02/07/375000the-sticker-price-for-an-iranian-shahed-drone/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2024/02/07/375000the...
    - chomskyole 2y ago
      Sorry but I find your criticism quite misleading. For one, the countries you labelled as problematic aren't the only ones on the list, so the $3b is vastly understated. The list includes sells to 58 countries, so I don't think that you can claim, as apparently implied, that the US is more ethical in how it sells weapons. Russia would currently pay a premium, so Iran selling $1.8b (assuming the leak is ballpark accurate) would translate to what at market rates? But most importantly you ignore the shear difference in size of the US military activity. Russia and China together wouldn't be able to do the same damage if they put all their resources together and only focused on it. The size of the US military operations (as shown above) is absolutely unmatched (bigger than the next 10 biggest countries roughly) ---- EDIT: Looks like the US has a 40% share of global arms exports, again more than the next 8-ish countries together. Number two for instance is France with 10%. [0] ---- The US has propped up and supported extremist regimes for over a century, something neither China nor Russia nor any other country can claim. Extremist regimes include the worst historical outliers like Nazi Germany, which relied heavily on US exports to undertake the holocaust (IBM) and had very friendly industrial relations before '41. There was also strong support for the Nazi party amongst industrial US leaders in particular (e.g. business plot). Of the Allied forces, the US went into war the latest (only after Japan and Germany declared war on the US) and gave generous amnesty to some of the worst murders from both Nazi Germany and Japan. No other country on earth can claim anything like this. Please don't minimise the crimes of the US by trying to compare them to other countries when the scope is so extremely different. The US has been at perpetual war nearly every year since the last 120 years or so and has done quite horrible experiments on their own population... it really would be good to start having a conversation about it. [0] https://www.statista.com/chart/18417/global-weapons-exports/ https://www.statista.com/chart/18417/global-weapons-exports/
_djo_ 2y ago
> I think it’s fair to say that the covert illegal activities of the US government probably exceed that of any other country by any reasonable measure. Not even close, and I say this as a citizen of a developing country that has seen its fair share of superpower influence operations. The covert illegal activities of China and Russia equal or surpass those of the US in most regions. There are Russian operatives committing sabotage on European industrial facilities, and the country has an entire private army (Wagner, now rebranded as Africa Corps) that has been conducting dodgy activities all over Africa for decades now. The recent string of military coups in the Sahel clearly have Russian influence involved, given how quickly Wagner/Africa Corps rushes in immediately after. There are increasing reports of Russian and Chinese influence operations designed to sway my country's next national election, including the emergence of an entirely new political party which espouses extreme traditionalist and anti-Western views and somehow has endless funding for rallies, advertising, and other campaigns all over the country. It was discovered a few years ago that the computer and telecommunications systems that China generously donated to the AU Parliament were riddled with surveillance equipment. There are many more examples out there. >And we also manufacture and ship weapons all over the world, including to horrible regimes like Saudi Arabia. We are currently about to ship over $1 billion in weapons to a country actively perpetrating a genocide. Yes, and the US deserves criticism for that, but by and large the US is a lot more selective about who it sells to and what it sells them than Russia and China are. In fact, it's because of concerns about the consistency of US munition supplies that Saudi Arabia (and the UAE) have invested substantially in setting up their own bomb, missile, and other armaments factories so they're less reliant on the US. The US retains the right to refuse weapons that it sees as pursuing policies it disagrees with, so it has for instance in the past agreed to provide surface to air missiles or air to air missiles but paused the delivery of aircraft bombs. Nearly all of the weapons driving wars in Africa are Russian and Chinese, with a sprinkling of Iranian, Turkish, Emirati, and those of a few other small players, and they never block any shipments over human rights concerns. The genocide happening right now in Sudan is not driven at all by American or even Western weapons, and the flow of weapons hasn't slowed down despite the existence of sanctions. It's good to hold the US to a high standard, but it's silly to let that turn into a belief that it's uniquely terrible among the world's nations. That's far from accurate.
- 2y ago

n4r9 2y ago

Russia, Iran and China match or outdo the US in all of these. I'm no fan of the US at all, but to claim that they are worse than those countries is absurd.

chomskyole 2y ago
Do you have any data supporting this? The five largest weapon manufacturers are all from the US [1]. The US army is bigger than the next ten-ish armies together by budget [2] (I eyeballed that one). The US has a rich history of propping up extremist to take over democratically elected governments and supported the killing of millions of civilians. And they gave amnesty to some of the worst criminals from Germany and Japan after WW2 in order to give them jobs after the war to make use of the "knowledge" these criminals gained during their crimes. Honestly, I can't see any country competing with the US on this one. Even if there would have been intent, they would still lack scale.... [1] https://www.statista.com/chart/12221/the-worlds-biggest-arms-companies/ https://www.statista.com/chart/12221/the-worlds-biggest-arms... [2] https://www.globalfirepower.com/defense-spending-budget.php https://www.globalfirepower.com/defense-spending-budget.php
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  Yeah I suspect this person is immersed in western news and just hears all about “the bad guys”, but I wonder what the USA looks like to someone in those places. I appreciate your sharing of links. I didn’t have the energy to dig up a bunch of data, but the note about military expenditures supports the point nicely.
  - kolinko 2y ago
    At least in Poland, we appreciate USA’s involvement (and spending) in our region greatly. Ukraine also doesn’t mind, obviously.
    - n4r9 2y ago
      Right, the above comment neglects to differentiate whether the exports are to countries that use it in a completely justifiable manner.
      - chomskyole 2y ago
        As shown in my other answer, neither have you shown that the points matters. The scale of the US weapons program and military which outsizes any other countries definitely still supports the main point made. That some parts of the world appreciate the US activity has no bearing on criticism from parts of the world that do not appreciate it, as I'm sure you'd agree.
- n4r9 2y ago
  > The five largest weapon manufacturers are all from the US The question is not the absolute value of exports, but how much is exported to problematic regimes, and how this compares to the other countries I mentioned. The US's most problematic exports are to Saudi and Qatar - due to the likely human rights violations in Yemen - and Israel - due to the same in Palestine. Collectively, in 2022 this was around £3 billion in arms exports [0]. That's the most recent data I can find. The vast majority of the remainder is to countries like Japan or Ukraine, who's military activities are much more justified. Iran's most obvious problematic arms exports are to Russia, which is prosecuting an illegal invasion of Ukraine. It also exports arms to Sudan and North Korea, and funds Hamas in Palestine and Houthi rebels in Yemen. A major difficulty here is that international sanctions force a lot of the deals to be done covertly. Russia, for example, is struggling to pay for anything in cash and is known to have resorted to paying in gold. However, leaked documents from hacks into the Iranian Revolutionary Guard servers suggest that Russia has recently paid around $1.8 billion for Shahed drones alone from Iran [1]. I admit that leaked docs are hardly the most verified source of information, but if they are anywhere near accurate, then Iran is absolutely funding global atrocities at a rate comparable to the US. > The US has a rich history of propping up extremist to take over democratically elected governments Agreed, but look also at Russia's activities in Afghanistan, Belarus, Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, Moldova... . Look at what China has done to Hong Kong, and how it funds oppressive regimes in Latin America and Africa. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/248552/us-arms-exports-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/248552/us-arms-exports-b... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2024/02/07/375000the-sticker-price-for-an-iranian-shahed-drone/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2024/02/07/375000the...
  - chomskyole 2y ago
    Sorry but I find your criticism quite misleading. For one, the countries you labelled as problematic aren't the only ones on the list, so the $3b is vastly understated. The list includes sells to 58 countries, so I don't think that you can claim, as apparently implied, that the US is more ethical in how it sells weapons. Russia would currently pay a premium, so Iran selling $1.8b (assuming the leak is ballpark accurate) would translate to what at market rates? But most importantly you ignore the shear difference in size of the US military activity. Russia and China together wouldn't be able to do the same damage if they put all their resources together and only focused on it. The size of the US military operations (as shown above) is absolutely unmatched (bigger than the next 10 biggest countries roughly) ---- EDIT: Looks like the US has a 40% share of global arms exports, again more than the next 8-ish countries together. Number two for instance is France with 10%. [0] ---- The US has propped up and supported extremist regimes for over a century, something neither China nor Russia nor any other country can claim. Extremist regimes include the worst historical outliers like Nazi Germany, which relied heavily on US exports to undertake the holocaust (IBM) and had very friendly industrial relations before '41. There was also strong support for the Nazi party amongst industrial US leaders in particular (e.g. business plot). Of the Allied forces, the US went into war the latest (only after Japan and Germany declared war on the US) and gave generous amnesty to some of the worst murders from both Nazi Germany and Japan. No other country on earth can claim anything like this. Please don't minimise the crimes of the US by trying to compare them to other countries when the scope is so extremely different. The US has been at perpetual war nearly every year since the last 120 years or so and has done quite horrible experiments on their own population... it really would be good to start having a conversation about it. [0] https://www.statista.com/chart/18417/global-weapons-exports/ https://www.statista.com/chart/18417/global-weapons-exports/

_djo_ 2y ago

> I think it’s fair to say that the covert illegal activities of the US government probably exceed that of any other country by any reasonable measure. Not even close, and I say this as a citizen of a developing country that has seen its fair share of superpower influence operations. The covert illegal activities of China and Russia equal or surpass those of the US in most regions. There are Russian operatives committing sabotage on European industrial facilities, and the country has an entire private army (Wagner, now rebranded as Africa Corps) that has been conducting dodgy activities all over Africa for decades now. The recent string of military coups in the Sahel clearly have Russian influence involved, given how quickly Wagner/Africa Corps rushes in immediately after. There are increasing reports of Russian and Chinese influence operations designed to sway my country's next national election, including the emergence of an entirely new political party which espouses extreme traditionalist and anti-Western views and somehow has endless funding for rallies, advertising, and other campaigns all over the country. It was discovered a few years ago that the computer and telecommunications systems that China generously donated to the AU Parliament were riddled with surveillance equipment. There are many more examples out there. >And we also manufacture and ship weapons all over the world, including to horrible regimes like Saudi Arabia. We are currently about to ship over $1 billion in weapons to a country actively perpetrating a genocide. Yes, and the US deserves criticism for that, but by and large the US is a lot more selective about who it sells to and what it sells them than Russia and China are. In fact, it's because of concerns about the consistency of US munition supplies that Saudi Arabia (and the UAE) have invested substantially in setting up their own bomb, missile, and other armaments factories so they're less reliant on the US. The US retains the right to refuse weapons that it sees as pursuing policies it disagrees with, so it has for instance in the past agreed to provide surface to air missiles or air to air missiles but paused the delivery of aircraft bombs. Nearly all of the weapons driving wars in Africa are Russian and Chinese, with a sprinkling of Iranian, Turkish, Emirati, and those of a few other small players, and they never block any shipments over human rights concerns. The genocide happening right now in Sudan is not driven at all by American or even Western weapons, and the flow of weapons hasn't slowed down despite the existence of sanctions. It's good to hold the US to a high standard, but it's silly to let that turn into a belief that it's uniquely terrible among the world's nations. That's far from accurate.

2y ago