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I'm glad that we learned from this and took measures to prevent the US government from carrying out any more abhorrent secret operations on its own citizens. Al

by bhaney 2y ago

I'm glad that we learned from this and took measures to prevent the US government from carrying out any more abhorrent secret operations on its own citizens. All the extra accountability and transparency that's been woven into our institutional frameworks since this was discovered makes me much more confident that it won't happen again.

dbspin 2y ago
/s
- bhaney 2y ago
  Naturally
xyst 2y ago
The American obsession with torture is wild. Psychological and physical (esp during post-9/11)
- XorNot 2y ago
  Because most people believe torture works. They believe we shouldn't do it because it's "bad", rather then the reality which is that it's ineffective at information extraction. Same problem with WMDs: people tend to think there's just tons of chemical and biological weapons which would definitely immediately win wars, and we don't use them because for some reason dying by a bullet is "better" then dying nearly instantly from nerve gas - like that makes a difference. The reality, again, is that they don't actually work (specifically: they are ineffective against military forces in achieving military objectives, but very effective against civilians who are unlikely to have counter-measures on hand and/or too uncontrollable to be create a useful strategic advantage). EDIT: Like to drive the point home, in Zero Dark Thirty - which the CIA got to consult on - the line is that a prisoner broke under enhanced interrogation...and while it's true Bin Laden was located by intelligence from a prisoner who was tortured...they didn't get the intelligence from the torture. All the information which was useful was found by regular interrogation before they tortured them.
  - rickdeckard 2y ago
    > Because most people believe torture works. They believe we shouldn't do it because it's "bad", rather then the reality which is that it's ineffective at information extraction. I think most of those people believe torture works AND is also justified to prevent "greater evil", because that's how it is being presented repeatedly in media. It's still a quite popular trope in TV series that the protagonists "were forced to take drastic actions" to prevent "the bad people" from executing their plan. They sometimes feel torn about doing it, but in the end it is portrayed as necessary and effective in stopping whatever threat...
    - formerly_proven 2y ago
      There's only a few media depictions subverting this, like Unthinkable (2010).
      - 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
        taken (2008) liam neeson's character tortures and kills the man who had abducted his daughter.
    - sfn42 2y ago
      I see this "torture doesn't work" claim around sometimes and personally I have a hard time accepting it. If you ask me something I don't want to tell you, I won't tell you. But you start tearing out nails (or even threaten to do so) I'll spill all the damn beans I can to make you stop.
      - Wieldable4640 2y ago
        The argument being made is that once people are tearing out nails you’d tell them you’re the Easter bunny if you believe that that’ll make them stop. You’d tell them that you’re guilty even though you are innocent because you’d want the pain to stop. That’s why people say that confessions gained via torture are not reliable.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  From an European POV: America has a cultural problem with violence and generally the concept of them showing dominance over others, plain and simple. Guns, the amazing fact that bare nipples in a TV show can cause a national scandal while it's no big deal at all if a kids show like the Simpsons can contain absolutely ridiculous amounts of violence, gore and other highly problematic behavior, not just bending but outright stomping over rules being commonplace in virtually all major police (e.g. Law & Order, NCIS, Cold Case) and medical (e.g. Dr. House) shows and movies, "rolling coal" on bicyclists and road rage in general being a thing... Torture being accepted so widely as well also ties in with what makes the US penal system so unique among Western ones - everyone else has switched their penal system to rehabilitation and prevention (i.e. try your best to make sure that felons don't commit more crimes in the future), whereas in the US you don't just have stuff like ridiculous prison times or being released with no assets, no help, no nothing after a lengthy prison stay, it's widely accepted to the point of being the butt of jokes that you get raped in prison ("don't drop a soap bar") or that you have to deal with massive overcrowding, roaches, mold in food... in any civilized society, the courts would intervene immediately for such reports, but in the US? Nothing has changed there in decades, partially of course because the US political system is dysfunctional, but IMHO more because people accept inhumane treatment of people who "have done something wrong, so deserve it". And to add on the 9/11 thing: the US is already a deeply traumatized nation at its core. Stuff like MKULTRA, the Vietnam war or the 1st Iraq war never got addressed and dealt with as a country in a healthy way - and completely forget about the even older stuff like slavery or the discrimination of e.g. Japanese-Americans during WW2, there's more than enough politicians in power who do everything they can to repress even teaching about that! 9/11, Afghanistan and the 2nd Iraq War, the multitude of financial crises since then - that also didn't get dealt with. How can anyone expect healthy attitudes from a society that never allowed itself to heal from its past?
  - kman82 2y ago
    “From a European POV”? This is incredibly hypocritical considering what Europe has done over the last 500 years in latam, Africa, Asia, etc. You need to check yourself.
    - deleted 2y ago
- EasyMark 2y ago
  American GOVERNMENT. 99% of Americans have never tortured anyone at all and don't ever want to, so I'd hardly call it an obsession. I guarantee if Europeans were pulling their own weight in "world defense of democracy" there would be lots of Gitmo and Faluja incidents as well, toxic masculinity is alive and well in ALL militaries and this is what happens when they aren't supervised 24/7 against it, especially when it's mixed with war fatigue.
  - hulitu 2y ago
    > American GOVERNMENT. 99% of Americans have never tortured anyone at all and don't ever want to, so I'd hardly call it an obsession Some people used the same arguments with the Nazis.
  - drewcoo 2y ago
    > 99% of Americans have never tortured anyone at all and don't ever want to A lot of movies seem like torture porn to me. I'm not so sure we the people are opposed to torture.
wopwops 2y ago
I think this is sarcasm.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
krapp 2y ago
If anything we (and by we I mean the CIA) learned how not to mind-control people, and moved on to more effective and subtle means of manipulation through the media.

by bhaney 2y ago

dbspin 2y ago

bhaney 2y ago
Naturally

xyst 2y ago

The American obsession with torture is wild. Psychological and physical (esp during post-9/11)

XorNot 2y ago
Because most people believe torture works. They believe we shouldn't do it because it's "bad", rather then the reality which is that it's ineffective at information extraction. Same problem with WMDs: people tend to think there's just tons of chemical and biological weapons which would definitely immediately win wars, and we don't use them because for some reason dying by a bullet is "better" then dying nearly instantly from nerve gas - like that makes a difference. The reality, again, is that they don't actually work (specifically: they are ineffective against military forces in achieving military objectives, but very effective against civilians who are unlikely to have counter-measures on hand and/or too uncontrollable to be create a useful strategic advantage). EDIT: Like to drive the point home, in Zero Dark Thirty - which the CIA got to consult on - the line is that a prisoner broke under enhanced interrogation...and while it's true Bin Laden was located by intelligence from a prisoner who was tortured...they didn't get the intelligence from the torture. All the information which was useful was found by regular interrogation before they tortured them.
- rickdeckard 2y ago
  > Because most people believe torture works. They believe we shouldn't do it because it's "bad", rather then the reality which is that it's ineffective at information extraction. I think most of those people believe torture works AND is also justified to prevent "greater evil", because that's how it is being presented repeatedly in media. It's still a quite popular trope in TV series that the protagonists "were forced to take drastic actions" to prevent "the bad people" from executing their plan. They sometimes feel torn about doing it, but in the end it is portrayed as necessary and effective in stopping whatever threat...
  - formerly_proven 2y ago
    There's only a few media depictions subverting this, like Unthinkable (2010).
    - 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
      taken (2008) liam neeson's character tortures and kills the man who had abducted his daughter.
  - sfn42 2y ago
    I see this "torture doesn't work" claim around sometimes and personally I have a hard time accepting it. If you ask me something I don't want to tell you, I won't tell you. But you start tearing out nails (or even threaten to do so) I'll spill all the damn beans I can to make you stop.
    - Wieldable4640 2y ago
      The argument being made is that once people are tearing out nails you’d tell them you’re the Easter bunny if you believe that that’ll make them stop. You’d tell them that you’re guilty even though you are innocent because you’d want the pain to stop. That’s why people say that confessions gained via torture are not reliable.
mschuster91 2y ago
From an European POV: America has a cultural problem with violence and generally the concept of them showing dominance over others, plain and simple. Guns, the amazing fact that bare nipples in a TV show can cause a national scandal while it's no big deal at all if a kids show like the Simpsons can contain absolutely ridiculous amounts of violence, gore and other highly problematic behavior, not just bending but outright stomping over rules being commonplace in virtually all major police (e.g. Law & Order, NCIS, Cold Case) and medical (e.g. Dr. House) shows and movies, "rolling coal" on bicyclists and road rage in general being a thing... Torture being accepted so widely as well also ties in with what makes the US penal system so unique among Western ones - everyone else has switched their penal system to rehabilitation and prevention (i.e. try your best to make sure that felons don't commit more crimes in the future), whereas in the US you don't just have stuff like ridiculous prison times or being released with no assets, no help, no nothing after a lengthy prison stay, it's widely accepted to the point of being the butt of jokes that you get raped in prison ("don't drop a soap bar") or that you have to deal with massive overcrowding, roaches, mold in food... in any civilized society, the courts would intervene immediately for such reports, but in the US? Nothing has changed there in decades, partially of course because the US political system is dysfunctional, but IMHO more because people accept inhumane treatment of people who "have done something wrong, so deserve it". And to add on the 9/11 thing: the US is already a deeply traumatized nation at its core. Stuff like MKULTRA, the Vietnam war or the 1st Iraq war never got addressed and dealt with as a country in a healthy way - and completely forget about the even older stuff like slavery or the discrimination of e.g. Japanese-Americans during WW2, there's more than enough politicians in power who do everything they can to repress even teaching about that! 9/11, Afghanistan and the 2nd Iraq War, the multitude of financial crises since then - that also didn't get dealt with. How can anyone expect healthy attitudes from a society that never allowed itself to heal from its past?
- kman82 2y ago
  “From a European POV”? This is incredibly hypocritical considering what Europe has done over the last 500 years in latam, Africa, Asia, etc. You need to check yourself.
  - deleted 2y ago
EasyMark 2y ago
American GOVERNMENT. 99% of Americans have never tortured anyone at all and don't ever want to, so I'd hardly call it an obsession. I guarantee if Europeans were pulling their own weight in "world defense of democracy" there would be lots of Gitmo and Faluja incidents as well, toxic masculinity is alive and well in ALL militaries and this is what happens when they aren't supervised 24/7 against it, especially when it's mixed with war fatigue.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > American GOVERNMENT. 99% of Americans have never tortured anyone at all and don't ever want to, so I'd hardly call it an obsession Some people used the same arguments with the Nazis.
- drewcoo 2y ago
  > 99% of Americans have never tortured anyone at all and don't ever want to A lot of movies seem like torture porn to me. I'm not so sure we the people are opposed to torture.

wopwops 2y ago

I think this is sarcasm.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

krapp 2y ago

If anything we (and by we I mean the CIA) learned how not to mind-control people, and moved on to more effective and subtle means of manipulation through the media.