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> You however refused to engage with that argument. Claiming that I wasn’t making any coherent arguments. The thing is, I’m not making those arguments, legal ex

• runarberg 2y ago
  How can you call the Nakba a myth? It is a historical event with historical documents. Some of the victims and perpetrators are even still alive today and do describe exactly what happened. Calling it a myth is the kind of denialism which makes it impossible for me to engage with. Climate deniers also deny that climate change is real, that doesn’t make their position correct, or even legitimate, it just makes them wrong, and impossible to engage with. Now, I’m actually not that smart, and I don’t know how to summarize arguments in a convincing manner. We have plenty of people that have done so already, Wikipedia does an excellent job for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid I guess that is also appealing to authority.
  • rendall 2y ago
    > How can you call the Nakba a myth? Not exactly what I said. I said you should understand why pro-Israelis consider it to be a myth. You don't have to agree, but at least understand the arguments. You say you're not smart, but if you're smart enough to argue one side, then you're smart enough to understand the best arguments of the other. Though "How can you call the Nakba a myth?" is in the form of a question, I have enough experience in "debates" of this sort to know it would be a mistake to treat it as a question. "How can you call the Nakba a myth?" is not actually your earnest request for an exchange of views, is it. It's more of a rhetorical device to demonstrate disagreement, even disapproval. Given that it's not an invitation to exchange views, were I to make the mistake of interpreting it as an actual question, and were then to take the time to answer, explain, link to sources, ask questions in return, would you not scoff, dismiss, divert, and not seek to absorb the actual argument, but look immediately for ways to "debunk" it? Some, worried about ideological taint, might even run off to find approved anti-Israel sources to find out how they "debunk" the argument. Invariably, the quality of the rebuttal is not as important as its existence. You (and your co-interlocutor @racional) disapprove, and you are on Team Palestine, therefore it doesn't really matter what the Nakba myth arguments actually are, nor their rebuttal, because they aren't gonna be seriously considered anyway. Again, disappointing, but unsurprising. Not sure how barking talking points at each other is helping at this point. Let us all cheerfully agree to disagree. You can continue to believe that Israel is committing genocide, and I can continue to believe that the accusation is murderously cynical, callous and morally bankrupt.
    • runarberg 2y ago
      You are approaching this as if this is some sort of a debate, with a panel of judges who score us point depending on our performance. That is not the case. There is no competition, no judges, and whatever it is we are doing is nothing like competitive debate. If we were doing competitive debate, a tactic like building a hypothetical Nakba denier, and claiming I have to understand their point—despite denying the Nakba being obviously wrong—that tactic might work in competitive debate, but not here. I don’t care about people who deny a real historical event, and I don’t have to acknowledge them, let alone understand them. They are just wrong. If they exists, that changes nothing, except the number of misinformed and wrong people surrounding this issue. This is not a competitive debate, but an internet forum aimed at tech workers and tech enthusiasts. My goal here is to inform people of the ongoing genocide (which is really sad that that is something we need to do in the 21st century) because there are tech workers contributing to the genocide. I entered this thread 10 days ago because you had been gish galloping common myths about the issue (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40269500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40269500) and I felt the need to correct some of them for a wider audience. Some of those myths were ridiculous and obviously wrong, such as Zionism being a dog whistle, and smearing Pro-palestinian protestors as Nazis. It was not hard to correct those. Why I continued the thread though, that is anybodies guess. IF your goal is to win me in a debate, you have probably succeeded. Congratulations. But I’d like to remind you that there are real victims in the ongoing genocide. Real people, some of them are tech workers who may have an account here on HN. To them this is not a debate which seperates people into “our team” and the “other team”. To them this is a disaster, a tragedy. Out of respect to all the victims of the genocide, I’m not gonna “agree to disagree”. You were wrong on multiple points in your original post, and while these wrong points persist in the public dialog, there will be tech workers feeling OK about contributing their work into furthering the atrocities, which will result in even more of our comrades being murdered in the ongoing genocide.
• runarberg 2y ago
  > And, frankly, you did not even understand that the document was an accusation. This fundamental error didn't give me confidence, to be honest. The document I linked was a testimony relating to accusations made by the UN general assembly. You incorrectly stated I cited it as a judgement, but I did not. I did however cite an ICJ judgement (Case 131) later which ruled Israel’s border wall illegal under international law, which was cited in the accusations for more general human rights violations (A/RES/77/247). I understand what I cited, and I stand by my words. I’m however not that smart, and perhaps I failed to convey the purpose of each document I cited. Sorry for that.
• racional 2y ago
  "The Nakba" is considered by pro-Israelis to be a myth, then you should, and you should know why. This is, in itself, a myth. They might talk around it, and attempt to dial down certain aspects, bemoan the "necessity", etc. But every serious person in Israel more or less acknowledges the basic historic reality of the Nakba these days. In fact, far from denying the Nakba -- since Oct 7, some are now quite proud of what the Irgun and the Haganah accomplished in 1948-1949, and are openly issuing calls to take it up a notch. Meet Likud MK Ariel Kallner for example (via WP): Following Hamas’s attack on Israeli communities near Gaza, Kallner in October 2023 called for Israel to bring about a second Nakba. In a post on social media platform X, Kallner advocated for a "Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of ’48", calling for a "Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join." Not to be outdone -- here's Former Internal Security Minister and Shin Bet director Avi Dichter (from the same party, natch): Israeli security cabinet member and Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter (Likud) was asked in a news interview on Saturday whether the images of northern Gaza Strip residents evacuating south on the IDF’s orders are comparable to images of the Nakba. He replied: “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba. From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war – as the IDF seeks to do in Gaza – with masses between the tanks and the soldiers.” When asked again whether this was the “Gaza Nakba”, Dichter – a member of the security cabinet and former Shin Bet director – said “Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end.” https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-12/ty-article/israeli-security-cabinet-member-calls-north-gaza-evacuation-nakba-2023/0000018b-c2be-dea2-a9bf-d2be7b670000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-12/ty-article/is...
  • racional 2y ago
    Let's also remember the words of MK Israel Katz (now Minister for Foreign Affairs). A bit ahead of the curve, his remarks came in 2022 in a speech before the Knesset: “Yesterday I warned the Arab students, who are flying Palestine flags at universities: Remember 48. Remember our independence war and your Nakba, don’t stretch the rope too much. Ask your elders, your grandfathers and grandmothers and they will explain to you that in the end the Jews will awaken. They know how to defend themselves and the Jewish state. Don't stretch the rope too much.” After a protest from a Palestinian lawmaker Aida Touma-Sliman, he shot back: Listen, listen - if you don't calm down, we'll teach you a lesson that won't be forgotten https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1529484002595414019 https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1529484002595414019