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Are the only concrete examples a seven year old walking to school by themselves and wearing snow boots sometimes? I remember speaking to a Swiss national who bo

Are the only concrete examples a seven year old walking to school by themselves and wearing snow boots sometimes? I remember speaking to a Swiss national who boasted about how they walked everywhere. I didn't say anything, but all I could think was "well yeah, if I lived where summers were 70 degrees, a backdrop of scenic mountain beauty, and everything is in walking distance, I'd probably walk more places too."

FillerAccount47 2y ago
Isn't that the point? That the different environments incentive different patterns of transit and that in turn induces different modes of dependency in the children? From my experience city kids are substantially more independent than their suburban counterparts for exactly this reason. The latter can't go anywhere without their parents unless they live particularly close to a park or some such, and even then will often be yelled at for doing so as it's "too dangerous for someone their age"
- bombcar 2y ago
  It depends more on the parents than the locality, though parents of a particular bend may pick similar localities. In our area kids are seen walking around and nobody really comments or cares, and it's certainly not very dense.
  - FillerAccount47 2y ago
    I would disagree with this, just on the basis that there are localities where it becomes physically impossible to do so. Most commonly in relatively "dense" suburbs where having children walk around is a genuine hazard because of cars and because other parents will call the cops if the child looks under 12. Of course on the individual level it is possible to go against the grain but in the current cultural sphere it's definitely really hard. I am annoyed I cannot find a great case study I saw of this being done where an unattended child of 8 was playing by themselves on a playground and had the cops called on them multiple times by multiple sets of "concerned parents." This being despite the fact that kidnappings and incidents of that nature are actually extremely rare compared to basically every other form of injury for minors
  - UtopiaPunk 2y ago
    Hmm, I don't think that's right. I'm just anecdata, but I currently live in the suburbs with a very young child. The nice places to hang out and play either require driving or, at a minimum, walking on sidewalks directly next to fast traffic and crosswalks at very busy intersections. As an adult, I find it uneasy to walk, even when it is possible. I don't think I'd be okay letting, say, a 10 year old run around here without supervision, mostly because about vehicles and how much they dominate the landscape around my house. I want my kids to grow up and be independent. To that end, we are planning to move away from our car-centric suburb to a dense city in the next couple of years. So I think that's a locality thing (although, maybe to your point, it's somewhat self-selecting).
theanonymousone 2y ago
If only summers were 70F (~21C) here :'(
- microtherion 2y ago
  They've never been, at least since we stopped hunting mammoths. Sure, temperature (and even more so severity of storms) have increased in the last decades, but not quite that much.
rqtwteye 2y ago
"Are the only concrete examples a seven year old walking to school by themselves and wearing snow boots sometimes?" In Germany I walked to Kindergarden around one mile in any weather. Snow boots when necessary. From 5th grade on I walked a mile to the train, and then another half mile from train to school. In any weather and it was no big deal.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  I don't get this focus of HN with pointing out walking to places for kids, as if it's feature only in rich developed countries like Switzerland or Germany. Even in the 90's Eastern Europe we used to walk to school by ourselves several km, and pretty sure it also applies in other continents tool.
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    Its a contrast with American style development where much of the development is actively hostile to walking despite being rich and developed. Kids in Mexico and Peru walk places too.
    - Aerroon 2y ago
      I think the culture (not) allowing them to walk has a larger impact on this. I bet that if it was culturally ok then people (kids) would find a way to make it work. Kids take shortcuts through grass and wooded areas. They are so thoroughly walked through by now that they are just considered normal paths. And if that shortcut leads to a road crossing, that obviously didn't have a zebra, then they just cross there anyway. I saw that some years ago they built a larger road on the way and put up barriers and what not. Then I saw some kids walk up to it, jump over the barrier, walk across the road and jump over the other side. Obviously this isn't ideal, but if it's okay to let people (kids) walk, then I think they would figure out paths to make it work. As long as the distances aren't too far. I think 1.5-2 miles would be near the upper limit of reasonableness.
      - dghlsakjg 2y ago
banannaise 2y ago
The design problems that prevent walking are more than just distance. Roads in most places have gotten absurdly large, as have vehicles, and crossing infrastructure is often terrible and sometimes nonexistent. By designing for car dominance, we've made walking extremely dangerous, especially for children. This also applies to bicycling.
- the_snooze 2y ago
  >By designing for car dominance, we've made walking extremely dangerous, especially for children. Near where I work, there's a stretch of storefronts that's had high turnover over the past decade. All those spots are on one side of a large road. On the opposite side of the road are a bunch of stores and restaurants that have thrived long-term, given that there are more residences and offices on that side. Even though there are plenty of crosswalks, the road naturally deters people from giving business to the shops on the far side. Roads connect places for cars. But they're walls for everyone else.
- microtherion 2y ago
  The design problems go beyond just choices that advantage cars at the expense of pedestrians. It would not disadvantage cars at all to allow pedestrians to cut across from one parking lot to another, yet often there are fences or dense hedges placed to prevent exactly that.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Barrin92 2y ago
>Are the only concrete examples a seven year old walking to school by themselves and wearing snow boots sometimes? It's a much broader thing culturally from my experience well up into adult age. When I was in uni a little bit more than 10 years ago (in Germany) we used to have quite a few American expats and they behaved like kids too. Over here people can drink when they're 16, when they're 18 they move into a shared flat, do their laundry, cook their food etc. The American students were all into dorm life, couldn't handle booze, couldn't cook often, etc. American schools and colleges seem like daycare centers in comparison to education here. I don't buy the argument that this is just about transit or environment or safety. US life seems very "on rails" all the time straight up into adulthood.
laeri 2y ago
Your point stands but in summer it gets up to around 35 degrees, 95 fahrenheit to be correct.
- bitshiftfaced 2y ago
  Since I wanted to describe a typical summer, I used a reportedly average summer day. I agree that highs and lows will vary. > From July to August the daytime temperature range is 18 to 28 °C (65° - 82° F) https://www.myswitzerland.com/en-us/planning/about-switzerland/general-facts/facts-about-switzerland/climate/ https://www.myswitzerland.com/en-us/planning/about-switzerla...
  - theanonymousone 2y ago
    Numbers in thst link are not realistic. Not in recent years, and certainly not in July and August.
    - bitshiftfaced 2y ago
      It looks like that link was accurate. July highs in Zurich average between 70 and 80: https://weatherspark.com/m/60160/7/Average-Weather-in-July-in-Z%C3%BCrich-Switzerland https://weatherspark.com/m/60160/7/Average-Weather-in-July-i...

FillerAccount47 2y ago

Isn't that the point? That the different environments incentive different patterns of transit and that in turn induces different modes of dependency in the children? From my experience city kids are substantially more independent than their suburban counterparts for exactly this reason. The latter can't go anywhere without their parents unless they live particularly close to a park or some such, and even then will often be yelled at for doing so as it's "too dangerous for someone their age"

bombcar 2y ago
It depends more on the parents than the locality, though parents of a particular bend may pick similar localities. In our area kids are seen walking around and nobody really comments or cares, and it's certainly not very dense.
- FillerAccount47 2y ago
  I would disagree with this, just on the basis that there are localities where it becomes physically impossible to do so. Most commonly in relatively "dense" suburbs where having children walk around is a genuine hazard because of cars and because other parents will call the cops if the child looks under 12. Of course on the individual level it is possible to go against the grain but in the current cultural sphere it's definitely really hard. I am annoyed I cannot find a great case study I saw of this being done where an unattended child of 8 was playing by themselves on a playground and had the cops called on them multiple times by multiple sets of "concerned parents." This being despite the fact that kidnappings and incidents of that nature are actually extremely rare compared to basically every other form of injury for minors
- UtopiaPunk 2y ago
  Hmm, I don't think that's right. I'm just anecdata, but I currently live in the suburbs with a very young child. The nice places to hang out and play either require driving or, at a minimum, walking on sidewalks directly next to fast traffic and crosswalks at very busy intersections. As an adult, I find it uneasy to walk, even when it is possible. I don't think I'd be okay letting, say, a 10 year old run around here without supervision, mostly because about vehicles and how much they dominate the landscape around my house. I want my kids to grow up and be independent. To that end, we are planning to move away from our car-centric suburb to a dense city in the next couple of years. So I think that's a locality thing (although, maybe to your point, it's somewhat self-selecting).

theanonymousone 2y ago

If only summers were 70F (~21C) here :'(

microtherion 2y ago
They've never been, at least since we stopped hunting mammoths. Sure, temperature (and even more so severity of storms) have increased in the last decades, but not quite that much.

rqtwteye 2y ago

"Are the only concrete examples a seven year old walking to school by themselves and wearing snow boots sometimes?" In Germany I walked to Kindergarden around one mile in any weather. Snow boots when necessary. From 5th grade on I walked a mile to the train, and then another half mile from train to school. In any weather and it was no big deal.

Rinzler89 2y ago
I don't get this focus of HN with pointing out walking to places for kids, as if it's feature only in rich developed countries like Switzerland or Germany. Even in the 90's Eastern Europe we used to walk to school by ourselves several km, and pretty sure it also applies in other continents tool.
- dghlsakjg 2y ago
  Its a contrast with American style development where much of the development is actively hostile to walking despite being rich and developed. Kids in Mexico and Peru walk places too.
  - Aerroon 2y ago
    I think the culture (not) allowing them to walk has a larger impact on this. I bet that if it was culturally ok then people (kids) would find a way to make it work. Kids take shortcuts through grass and wooded areas. They are so thoroughly walked through by now that they are just considered normal paths. And if that shortcut leads to a road crossing, that obviously didn't have a zebra, then they just cross there anyway. I saw that some years ago they built a larger road on the way and put up barriers and what not. Then I saw some kids walk up to it, jump over the barrier, walk across the road and jump over the other side. Obviously this isn't ideal, but if it's okay to let people (kids) walk, then I think they would figure out paths to make it work. As long as the distances aren't too far. I think 1.5-2 miles would be near the upper limit of reasonableness.
    - dghlsakjg 2y ago

banannaise 2y ago

The design problems that prevent walking are more than just distance. Roads in most places have gotten absurdly large, as have vehicles, and crossing infrastructure is often terrible and sometimes nonexistent. By designing for car dominance, we've made walking extremely dangerous, especially for children. This also applies to bicycling.

the_snooze 2y ago
>By designing for car dominance, we've made walking extremely dangerous, especially for children. Near where I work, there's a stretch of storefronts that's had high turnover over the past decade. All those spots are on one side of a large road. On the opposite side of the road are a bunch of stores and restaurants that have thrived long-term, given that there are more residences and offices on that side. Even though there are plenty of crosswalks, the road naturally deters people from giving business to the shops on the far side. Roads connect places for cars. But they're walls for everyone else.
microtherion 2y ago
The design problems go beyond just choices that advantage cars at the expense of pedestrians. It would not disadvantage cars at all to allow pedestrians to cut across from one parking lot to another, yet often there are fences or dense hedges placed to prevent exactly that.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Barrin92 2y ago

>Are the only concrete examples a seven year old walking to school by themselves and wearing snow boots sometimes? It's a much broader thing culturally from my experience well up into adult age. When I was in uni a little bit more than 10 years ago (in Germany) we used to have quite a few American expats and they behaved like kids too. Over here people can drink when they're 16, when they're 18 they move into a shared flat, do their laundry, cook their food etc. The American students were all into dorm life, couldn't handle booze, couldn't cook often, etc. American schools and colleges seem like daycare centers in comparison to education here. I don't buy the argument that this is just about transit or environment or safety. US life seems very "on rails" all the time straight up into adulthood.

laeri 2y ago

Your point stands but in summer it gets up to around 35 degrees, 95 fahrenheit to be correct.

bitshiftfaced 2y ago
Since I wanted to describe a typical summer, I used a reportedly average summer day. I agree that highs and lows will vary. > From July to August the daytime temperature range is 18 to 28 °C (65° - 82° F) https://www.myswitzerland.com/en-us/planning/about-switzerland/general-facts/facts-about-switzerland/climate/ https://www.myswitzerland.com/en-us/planning/about-switzerla...
- theanonymousone 2y ago
  Numbers in thst link are not realistic. Not in recent years, and certainly not in July and August.
  - bitshiftfaced 2y ago
    It looks like that link was accurate. July highs in Zurich average between 70 and 80: https://weatherspark.com/m/60160/7/Average-Weather-in-July-in-Z%C3%BCrich-Switzerland https://weatherspark.com/m/60160/7/Average-Weather-in-July-i...