5 ms·

LSD is absolutely NOT the poster child for safe illegal drugs: Something like cannabis, MDMA, or amphetamines would be. I think all of those have a decent clai

LSD is absolutely NOT the poster child for safe illegal drugs: Something like cannabis, MDMA, or amphetamines would be. I think all of those have a decent claim to being safer than or comparably safe to alcohol. Tobacco, as you say isn't particularly bad in the short term. But it is particularly addictive, so you end up with a large proportion of addicts / long term users for whom the longer term effects apply.

Retric 2y ago
Cannabis is linked to a significant number of traffic fatalities. Cancer risks are also meaningful with lifetime use so it’s a mix of Alcohol risk and Tobacco risk. Safe enough to be legal, but not really safe. People have fatal overdoses on MDMA and hart attacks etc. Amphetamines use is linked with cardiovascular issues and brain damage.
- imchillyb 2y ago
  > …2019 on deaths in three areas that have previously been linked to cannabis use but are still poorly understood: motor vehicle accidents, suicide and opioid overdose. For each cause of death, the researchers compared trends in deaths in states with legal markets with those in states that had comprehensive medical cannabis programs and similar trends in death rates prior to implementing markets… The study did not link cannabis use with traffic fatalities. The study linked trends. Cannabis use was not a factor in those deaths. Not listed as a cause. Not listed as intoxicated at time of accident. There is a significant difference between the narrative being schlepped versus what data was actually accumulated.
  - Retric 2y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8195290/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8195290/ Findings show that meta-analyses and culpability studies consistently indicate a slightly but significantly increased risk of crashes after acute cannabis use. These risks vary across included study type, crash severity, and method of substance application and measurement. Some studies show a significant correlation between high THC blood concentrations and car crash risk. Most studies do not support this relationship at lower THC concentrations. However, no scientifically supported clear cut-off concentration can be derived from these results. Further research is needed to determine dose-response effects on driving skills combined with measures of neuropsychological functioning related to driving skills and crash risk.
    - Sirizarry 2y ago
      I’m understanding here that cannabis is linked to a higher RISK of crash fatalities not linked to crash fatalities themselves? That’s a very important distinction.
      - Retric 2y ago
        No it’s really not, the same thing is true of alcohol use and car crashes because sober people still crash or lung cancer from smoking etc. Suppose you have a study of 10k people split 5k:5k between smokers and non smokers. In the non smokers group you get say 10 cases of lung cancer and the smokers group you get 200. It’s really tempting to say the individual smokers got long cancer from smoking, but the base rate isn’t 0 so you don’t know who was screwed either way. Perhaps if nobody smoked in that total population there would have been 19 cases of lung cancer or perhaps 22. Thus only thing you can say is smoking increases RISK of lung cancer not link it to specific cases.
- sophacles 2y ago
  So traffic deaths, heart attacks (and general cardio problems), and brain damage. Looks like a melange of cannabis, mdma and amphetamines is almost as dangerous as the standard american diet.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Ignore the rates and everything seems equally dangerous. People OD and die from drinking water, that doesn’t make it as dangerous as heroin.
- jwagenet 2y ago
  MDMA overdoses are almost certainly all cross-contamination with fentanyl.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Here’s 2 MDMA deaths that aren’t: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22640978/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22640978/ From one rave “Twelve patients with 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) toxicity from a single rave event presented to multiple San Francisco Bay area hospitals with various life-threatening complications including seizures and hyperthermia. Eight required emergent endotracheal intubation and six had hypotension. Hyperkalemia, acute kidney injury, and rhabdomyolysis were present in most of the patients. In all, 2 patients died, 4 survived with permanent neurologic, musculoskeletal, and/or renal sequelae, and 6 survived without any apparent lasting deficits. Hyperthermia was present in 10 patients and was severe (40.9-43° C) in 7. Using multiple cooling methods, the average time to achieve cooling was 2.7 hours. Serum drug analysis was performed on 3 patients, demonstrating toxic MDMA concentrations without the presence of other xenobiotics. Two capsules confiscated by police at the event contained 82% and 98% MDMA, respectively, without other pharmacologically active compounds. Capsule #2 contained 270 mg MDMA, which is more than twice the amount of MDMA usually contained in 1 dose. The MDMA-induced hyperthermia significantly contributed to the morbidity and mortality in this case series. Factors contributing to the severity of the hyperthermia include ingestion of large doses of MDMA, a warm ambient environment, and physical exertion.” To be clear drug testing would have discovered fentanyl or other common drugs in their bloodstream, so it’s not just based on the pills recovered. Granted legalization would likely result in more consistent doses which would help, but the drug itself would still be risky if people just kept consuming more.
    - evanelias 2y ago
      "Large dose" doesn't mean the same thing as "overdose". For context, the LD50 for MDMA is 160 mg/kg for rats. MDMA screws up the body's ability to regulate temperature. But without the warm environment and physical activity leading to hyperthermia, I can't imagine any of those people would have even needed medical attention. That said, personally I would never call MDMA "the poster child for safe illegal drugs". Just because it won't kill you, doesn't mean it is safe or risk-free.
malfist 2y ago
>Something like cannabis, MDMA, or amphetamines would be Are you really arguing that meth is a poster child for safe illegal drugs?
- mock-possum 2y ago
  Arguing for recreational ADHD meds more likely
- cooolbear 2y ago
  false equivalency
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
99% of what makes illegal drugs unsafe is caused by prohibition. Liquor store clerks aren't known to murder drinkers because the drinkers have been trying to pass fake twenties. The cops and beer dealers don't get in shootouts and kill each other or bystanders. Any time someone ODed, it was because the heroin was laced with fentanyl, or cut too much or not enough... none of which happens if heroin is regulated by the FDA, and doses are measured and unadulterated. With clean disposable needles in the box, no one gets AIDS or hepatitis. And you could probably train the junkies to use sharps containers and return them when full to get their deposit back. Hell, even petty theft is caused by piss tests... if you truly believe that these people become addicted to badly that they'll do anything for a fix, hey guess what? That includes scrubbing toilets for minimum wage. So why do they steal copper wire out of foreclosed homes for scrap? Because piss tests disqualify them for the toilet scrubbing positions.
fho 2y ago
With weed I am mostly concerned with the second order effects. I know a handful of long term users (mid-30s to mid-40s with decade long use) and the pattern that I see is that all of them just don't care about their life. They just never really had the drive to improve their situation in life to the point where it often is easier to get high instead of confronting problems.

Retric 2y ago

Cannabis is linked to a significant number of traffic fatalities. Cancer risks are also meaningful with lifetime use so it’s a mix of Alcohol risk and Tobacco risk. Safe enough to be legal, but not really safe. People have fatal overdoses on MDMA and hart attacks etc. Amphetamines use is linked with cardiovascular issues and brain damage.

imchillyb 2y ago
> …2019 on deaths in three areas that have previously been linked to cannabis use but are still poorly understood: motor vehicle accidents, suicide and opioid overdose. For each cause of death, the researchers compared trends in deaths in states with legal markets with those in states that had comprehensive medical cannabis programs and similar trends in death rates prior to implementing markets… The study did not link cannabis use with traffic fatalities. The study linked trends. Cannabis use was not a factor in those deaths. Not listed as a cause. Not listed as intoxicated at time of accident. There is a significant difference between the narrative being schlepped versus what data was actually accumulated.
- Retric 2y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8195290/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8195290/ Findings show that meta-analyses and culpability studies consistently indicate a slightly but significantly increased risk of crashes after acute cannabis use. These risks vary across included study type, crash severity, and method of substance application and measurement. Some studies show a significant correlation between high THC blood concentrations and car crash risk. Most studies do not support this relationship at lower THC concentrations. However, no scientifically supported clear cut-off concentration can be derived from these results. Further research is needed to determine dose-response effects on driving skills combined with measures of neuropsychological functioning related to driving skills and crash risk.
  - Sirizarry 2y ago
    I’m understanding here that cannabis is linked to a higher RISK of crash fatalities not linked to crash fatalities themselves? That’s a very important distinction.
    - Retric 2y ago
      No it’s really not, the same thing is true of alcohol use and car crashes because sober people still crash or lung cancer from smoking etc. Suppose you have a study of 10k people split 5k:5k between smokers and non smokers. In the non smokers group you get say 10 cases of lung cancer and the smokers group you get 200. It’s really tempting to say the individual smokers got long cancer from smoking, but the base rate isn’t 0 so you don’t know who was screwed either way. Perhaps if nobody smoked in that total population there would have been 19 cases of lung cancer or perhaps 22. Thus only thing you can say is smoking increases RISK of lung cancer not link it to specific cases.
sophacles 2y ago
So traffic deaths, heart attacks (and general cardio problems), and brain damage. Looks like a melange of cannabis, mdma and amphetamines is almost as dangerous as the standard american diet.
- Retric 2y ago
  Ignore the rates and everything seems equally dangerous. People OD and die from drinking water, that doesn’t make it as dangerous as heroin.
jwagenet 2y ago
MDMA overdoses are almost certainly all cross-contamination with fentanyl.
- Retric 2y ago
  Here’s 2 MDMA deaths that aren’t: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22640978/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22640978/ From one rave “Twelve patients with 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) toxicity from a single rave event presented to multiple San Francisco Bay area hospitals with various life-threatening complications including seizures and hyperthermia. Eight required emergent endotracheal intubation and six had hypotension. Hyperkalemia, acute kidney injury, and rhabdomyolysis were present in most of the patients. In all, 2 patients died, 4 survived with permanent neurologic, musculoskeletal, and/or renal sequelae, and 6 survived without any apparent lasting deficits. Hyperthermia was present in 10 patients and was severe (40.9-43° C) in 7. Using multiple cooling methods, the average time to achieve cooling was 2.7 hours. Serum drug analysis was performed on 3 patients, demonstrating toxic MDMA concentrations without the presence of other xenobiotics. Two capsules confiscated by police at the event contained 82% and 98% MDMA, respectively, without other pharmacologically active compounds. Capsule #2 contained 270 mg MDMA, which is more than twice the amount of MDMA usually contained in 1 dose. The MDMA-induced hyperthermia significantly contributed to the morbidity and mortality in this case series. Factors contributing to the severity of the hyperthermia include ingestion of large doses of MDMA, a warm ambient environment, and physical exertion.” To be clear drug testing would have discovered fentanyl or other common drugs in their bloodstream, so it’s not just based on the pills recovered. Granted legalization would likely result in more consistent doses which would help, but the drug itself would still be risky if people just kept consuming more.
  - evanelias 2y ago
    "Large dose" doesn't mean the same thing as "overdose". For context, the LD50 for MDMA is 160 mg/kg for rats. MDMA screws up the body's ability to regulate temperature. But without the warm environment and physical activity leading to hyperthermia, I can't imagine any of those people would have even needed medical attention. That said, personally I would never call MDMA "the poster child for safe illegal drugs". Just because it won't kill you, doesn't mean it is safe or risk-free.

malfist 2y ago

>Something like cannabis, MDMA, or amphetamines would be Are you really arguing that meth is a poster child for safe illegal drugs?

mock-possum 2y ago
Arguing for recreational ADHD meds more likely
cooolbear 2y ago
false equivalency

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago

99% of what makes illegal drugs unsafe is caused by prohibition. Liquor store clerks aren't known to murder drinkers because the drinkers have been trying to pass fake twenties. The cops and beer dealers don't get in shootouts and kill each other or bystanders. Any time someone ODed, it was because the heroin was laced with fentanyl, or cut too much or not enough... none of which happens if heroin is regulated by the FDA, and doses are measured and unadulterated. With clean disposable needles in the box, no one gets AIDS or hepatitis. And you could probably train the junkies to use sharps containers and return them when full to get their deposit back. Hell, even petty theft is caused by piss tests... if you truly believe that these people become addicted to badly that they'll do anything for a fix, hey guess what? That includes scrubbing toilets for minimum wage. So why do they steal copper wire out of foreclosed homes for scrap? Because piss tests disqualify them for the toilet scrubbing positions.

fho 2y ago

With weed I am mostly concerned with the second order effects. I know a handful of long term users (mid-30s to mid-40s with decade long use) and the pattern that I see is that all of them just don't care about their life. They just never really had the drive to improve their situation in life to the point where it often is easier to get high instead of confronting problems.