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> - China and their global junk manufacturing industry And who orders, buys and pays for all the junk? The western consumers. Who offshored their own dirty ma

> - China and their global junk manufacturing industry And who orders, buys and pays for all the junk? The western consumers. Who offshored their own dirty manufacturing industry to China due to their lack of workers/human rights and environmental protection? The west. Which companies profited the most from this offshoring to China? The western ones. Same for the textile/clothes industry. So I think you're looking at the wrong elephant. Look at your elected leaders first for failing to regulate "free trade" for the sake of profiteering at the expense of the environment. The hypocrisy of the rich western nations blaming the environmental damage on the poor countries to which they knowingly and willingly offshored their dirty industries to for profit, is mind boggling. Also, the hypocrisy of western tech companies when dealing with China is equally grandiose: -China's CCP: "So US big tech, you will have to host your data here and build backdoors to your services for us so we can read all your customer data and spy on your users here. Take it or leave it." -US big-tech: "Yessir! Right away CCP! Which other way should we bend over to make money in China?" -EU regulators: "So we're gonna need you to be upfront to your users here about your privacy invasive tracking and give users and opt-out option, and also not block your smaller competitors from accessing your gate-kept market places" -US big-tech: "Noooo! That's tyranny! Uncle Sam help, your poor tech monopolies are being oppressed by the Europeans."

waihtis 2y ago
No I'm with you, the multinational corporations are a major culprit in this.
- querez 2y ago
  It's the consumers first and foremost. The multinationals are just doing what's in their best interest.
  - jwells89 2y ago
    Multinationals are not blameless even if consumers ultimately create demand. It was them that has been working overtime for around a century now developing marketing and figuring out how to manipulate human psychology to convince consumers to buy as much as possible, creating the culture of consumerism we have today.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    Consumers didn't ask oil companies to run multi-decade campaigns of lies. Your second sentence is accurate but incomplete - the management of multinationals did what was in the best interest of the management.
liveoneggs 2y ago
What is the purpose or context of this thinking? To infantilise and absolve China?
- darkwater 2y ago
  To put the blame in the right place, perhaps? Obviously China (and its government) has its own responsibilities as well, but it all started with Western companies (and the Western lifestyle)
  - c048 2y ago
    China said yes to all those things for Western money. They could've said no, they could've put in restrictions to lower their profits and improve conditions. Don't act like China is some poor puppy bullied around by the West.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >China said yes to all those things for Western money. They could've said no Terrible argument. If it's not gonna be China, it's gonna be Vietnam, or Bangladesh, or Pakistan, or Sri Lanka, or whoever the rich west will deem fit to host their dirty industries at the most rock bottom prices so they can make a profit. So again, is really all China's or $POOR_NATION fault, or the West's fault for constantly bidding the poor countries against each other in a race to the bottom in terms of human rights and environmental destruction for the sake of profit? Just blaming the poor countries claiming that "well, the poor countries should just say NO to hosting the west's dirty industry", is incredibly stupid and short sighted.
      - card_zero 2y ago
        So, in your mind, China's industry is really the West's? Also, China is poor? Just a poor passive obedient victim of the West's desires?
      - _djo_ 2y ago
        Do you really think that China would not have industrialised if not for Western companies? Nothing about China's history shows that that's remotely true. In fact, outsourcing was only possible because of the various industrial plans that China had put in place in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, all of which prioritised building equivalent capacity to what existed in the West and the USSR. Moreover, China was destroying its environment in the 1950s already, long before it even allowed real trade with the West. Let's treat countries as responsible actors in their own right, not as mere non-independent reactors to Western actions.
misja111 2y ago
[flagged]
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >Who gets paid for selling all the junk? If a building contractor is known to use salve labor and dump the waste in the lake of the next town nearby, do you report him to the authorities to shut him down, or do you knowingly and willingly engage in business with him to do landscaping/work on your house for cheap despite knowing this about him, because it's profitable for you as well? If it's the latter, who's fault is it then? Is it really all his fault, or is it also your fault because you want things to be as chap as possible so you aid him at breaking the law and stay quiet, as long as you get your cut? If it's not gonna be China, it's gonna be Vietnam, or Bangladesh, or Pakistan, or Sri Lanka, or whoever the rich west will deem fit to host their dirty industries at the most rock bottom prices so they can make a profit. So again, is really all China's or $POOR_NATION fault, or the West's fault for constantly bidding the poor countries against each other in a race to the bottom?
  - linuxftw 2y ago
    Yeah, but how else will you get the new iPhone with 27 cameras that can make you prettier than you actually are?
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    Generally I think it is most fair to place the larger slice of blame on the one who originally presents the opportunity. These entities also tend to try and be opaque about the dubious methods they are using to undercut everyone else. Talk to that building contractor and they will swear that they pay their employees well and responsibly manage all waste. Of course, you still bear the remaining slice of blame since you kinda knew they were lying and went along with it anyway.
- Miraltar 2y ago
  The way I see it, blaming China is useless, as long as we behave the same, they gain too much to try changing.
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
The blame resides with the demand side / consumers. And the fact the lords of capitalism only care about power and bank account size, and the scienze/religion of economics can't see further than three months into the future.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

waihtis 2y ago

No I'm with you, the multinational corporations are a major culprit in this.

querez 2y ago
It's the consumers first and foremost. The multinationals are just doing what's in their best interest.
- jwells89 2y ago
  Multinationals are not blameless even if consumers ultimately create demand. It was them that has been working overtime for around a century now developing marketing and figuring out how to manipulate human psychology to convince consumers to buy as much as possible, creating the culture of consumerism we have today.
- triceratops 2y ago
  Consumers didn't ask oil companies to run multi-decade campaigns of lies. Your second sentence is accurate but incomplete - the management of multinationals did what was in the best interest of the management.

liveoneggs 2y ago

What is the purpose or context of this thinking? To infantilise and absolve China?

darkwater 2y ago
To put the blame in the right place, perhaps? Obviously China (and its government) has its own responsibilities as well, but it all started with Western companies (and the Western lifestyle)
- c048 2y ago
  China said yes to all those things for Western money. They could've said no, they could've put in restrictions to lower their profits and improve conditions. Don't act like China is some poor puppy bullied around by the West.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >China said yes to all those things for Western money. They could've said no Terrible argument. If it's not gonna be China, it's gonna be Vietnam, or Bangladesh, or Pakistan, or Sri Lanka, or whoever the rich west will deem fit to host their dirty industries at the most rock bottom prices so they can make a profit. So again, is really all China's or $POOR_NATION fault, or the West's fault for constantly bidding the poor countries against each other in a race to the bottom in terms of human rights and environmental destruction for the sake of profit? Just blaming the poor countries claiming that "well, the poor countries should just say NO to hosting the west's dirty industry", is incredibly stupid and short sighted.
    - card_zero 2y ago
      So, in your mind, China's industry is really the West's? Also, China is poor? Just a poor passive obedient victim of the West's desires?
    - _djo_ 2y ago
      Do you really think that China would not have industrialised if not for Western companies? Nothing about China's history shows that that's remotely true. In fact, outsourcing was only possible because of the various industrial plans that China had put in place in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, all of which prioritised building equivalent capacity to what existed in the West and the USSR. Moreover, China was destroying its environment in the 1950s already, long before it even allowed real trade with the West. Let's treat countries as responsible actors in their own right, not as mere non-independent reactors to Western actions.

misja111 2y ago

[flagged]

Rinzler89 2y ago
>Who gets paid for selling all the junk? If a building contractor is known to use salve labor and dump the waste in the lake of the next town nearby, do you report him to the authorities to shut him down, or do you knowingly and willingly engage in business with him to do landscaping/work on your house for cheap despite knowing this about him, because it's profitable for you as well? If it's the latter, who's fault is it then? Is it really all his fault, or is it also your fault because you want things to be as chap as possible so you aid him at breaking the law and stay quiet, as long as you get your cut? If it's not gonna be China, it's gonna be Vietnam, or Bangladesh, or Pakistan, or Sri Lanka, or whoever the rich west will deem fit to host their dirty industries at the most rock bottom prices so they can make a profit. So again, is really all China's or $POOR_NATION fault, or the West's fault for constantly bidding the poor countries against each other in a race to the bottom?
- linuxftw 2y ago
  Yeah, but how else will you get the new iPhone with 27 cameras that can make you prettier than you actually are?
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  Generally I think it is most fair to place the larger slice of blame on the one who originally presents the opportunity. These entities also tend to try and be opaque about the dubious methods they are using to undercut everyone else. Talk to that building contractor and they will swear that they pay their employees well and responsibly manage all waste. Of course, you still bear the remaining slice of blame since you kinda knew they were lying and went along with it anyway.
Miraltar 2y ago
The way I see it, blaming China is useless, as long as we behave the same, they gain too much to try changing.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

The blame resides with the demand side / consumers. And the fact the lords of capitalism only care about power and bank account size, and the scienze/religion of economics can't see further than three months into the future.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]