4 ms·

It is kind of amazing that a corporation can get a deferred prosecution agreement based on a monetary penalty. If I had killed someone, would I be allowed to b

It is kind of amazing that a corporation can get a deferred prosecution agreement based on a monetary penalty. If I had killed someone, would I be allowed to buy my freedom?

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
If that someone was a law abiding bicyclist or pedestrian you can expect only a wrist slap.
it_citizen 2y ago
You can do the next best thing. Get a very expensive defense team. There are too many instances of people who bought their freedom that way.
0x445442 2y ago
I’m going to make a wild guess that those convicted of murder is disproportionately inversely correlated with net worth, so in a sense, yes you can.
aeonik 2y ago
You can get plea bargains, and judges absolutely have discretion to put individuals on probation in lieu of criminal prosecution, if there is reason. But those have their own separate issues, of course.
ceejayoz 2y ago
> If I had killed someone, would I be allowed to buy my freedom? You mean like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Team_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Team_(law) ?
dragonwriter 2y ago
> If I had killed someone, would I be allowed to buy my freedom? One difference between an individual and a company is the former can't be guilty of a crime because of knowledge held by the hand and imputed to the person by law, but not possessed by the brain. Which was pretty much the basis for the deferred prosecution agreement here, and why besides the monetary penalty Boeing was obligated to take steps to prevent similar frauds.
berniedurfee 2y ago
How much money ya got?
fnordpiglet 2y ago
For a corporation who doesn’t exist in reality one of the most tangible punishments possible is monetary penalties plus behavioral commitments with teeth. It’s not like they’re going to put the Boeing HQ in a prison complex or something. Deferred prosecution saves a lot of money and time, on both sides, as well as deflects some amount of discovery. It also leaves a sword of Damocles over them that if they don’t reform everything they hoped to avoid by paying all that money comes back upon them and worse. This feels like a pretty effective way to punish and attempt to reform a corporation. The fact Boeing is so managed by the accountants that even their lawyers can’t convince them to stop cutting corners and trying to get away with substandard work to juice EPS is baffling though. The fact literally everyone on earth knows this is the problem yet they are still appointing a new airplanes unit CEO that is an accountant doubly so. (No joke, undergrad in accounting, MBA, both marginal schools)
- llm_trw 2y ago
  It would work quite well if you put the board in prison though.
  - fnordpiglet 2y ago
    They have to actually commit a crime. And there are some things that a corporation can do that this happens - and SOX has criminal liability attached. But criminality requires stuff like intent and involvement. Often times the board is way too remote from the decision to be criminally liable by any sense of justice. It might feel good to say that but when discussing sending human beings to prison the bar should be high (even though it’s too low for many people not on a board). But material consequences for companies are monetary and since a company’s life is money, that’s actually usually pretty compelling.
xenadu02 2y ago
> If I had killed someone, would I be allowed to buy my freedom In some cases this has been allowed, assuming it was not intentional. For example a neurosurgeon who accidentally hits someone in a crosswalk. The family can ask for no jail time so the surgeon can continue practicing because that's the only way the civil settlement will get paid. This depends on the victim or family's wishes, whether or not the prosecutor will approve, and what the judge thinks. From a societal view and the victim's view it might be a better outcome to get monetary compensation. FWIW since Boeing is too big to fail I'd love to see the US Government get rid of the current upper management and board. Put engineers back in charge and move HQ back to Seattle. Boeing's "new" CEO is another accountant. How much do you think he really cares or even understands the engineering and process issues? And how long do you think that "care" will last once the heat dies down?
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  You're confusing state law and federal law here. If I murder someone and the DoJ is involved in the prosecution for homicide it means I did something like kill a federal marshal. I'm not getting off with anything less than jail time.
  - jjk166 2y ago
    That is very much not how the distinction between state and federal law works.
    - sidewndr46 2y ago
      In general federal law does not criminalize homicide and manslaughter. It's only when it happens to specific groups or in very specific places. So to get prosecuted by the DoJ, you'd need to kill one of those groups.
      - jjk166 2y ago
        Well one of those specific places is "happened on an airplane" which seems to be the relevant one for this analogy. For example, say you shove someone on a plane and they fall and hit their head - federal manslaughter that would likely be a candidate for deferred prosecution.

It is kind of amazing that a corporation can get a deferred prosecution agreement based on a monetary penalty. If I had killed someone, would I be allowed to buy my freedom?

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago

If that someone was a law abiding bicyclist or pedestrian you can expect only a wrist slap.

it_citizen 2y ago

You can do the next best thing. Get a very expensive defense team. There are too many instances of people who bought their freedom that way.

0x445442 2y ago

I’m going to make a wild guess that those convicted of murder is disproportionately inversely correlated with net worth, so in a sense, yes you can.

aeonik 2y ago

You can get plea bargains, and judges absolutely have discretion to put individuals on probation in lieu of criminal prosecution, if there is reason. But those have their own separate issues, of course.

ceejayoz 2y ago

> If I had killed someone, would I be allowed to buy my freedom? You mean like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Team_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Team_(law) ?

dragonwriter 2y ago

> If I had killed someone, would I be allowed to buy my freedom? One difference between an individual and a company is the former can't be guilty of a crime because of knowledge held by the hand and imputed to the person by law, but not possessed by the brain. Which was pretty much the basis for the deferred prosecution agreement here, and why besides the monetary penalty Boeing was obligated to take steps to prevent similar frauds.

berniedurfee 2y ago

How much money ya got?

fnordpiglet 2y ago

For a corporation who doesn’t exist in reality one of the most tangible punishments possible is monetary penalties plus behavioral commitments with teeth. It’s not like they’re going to put the Boeing HQ in a prison complex or something. Deferred prosecution saves a lot of money and time, on both sides, as well as deflects some amount of discovery. It also leaves a sword of Damocles over them that if they don’t reform everything they hoped to avoid by paying all that money comes back upon them and worse. This feels like a pretty effective way to punish and attempt to reform a corporation. The fact Boeing is so managed by the accountants that even their lawyers can’t convince them to stop cutting corners and trying to get away with substandard work to juice EPS is baffling though. The fact literally everyone on earth knows this is the problem yet they are still appointing a new airplanes unit CEO that is an accountant doubly so. (No joke, undergrad in accounting, MBA, both marginal schools)

llm_trw 2y ago
It would work quite well if you put the board in prison though.
- fnordpiglet 2y ago
  They have to actually commit a crime. And there are some things that a corporation can do that this happens - and SOX has criminal liability attached. But criminality requires stuff like intent and involvement. Often times the board is way too remote from the decision to be criminally liable by any sense of justice. It might feel good to say that but when discussing sending human beings to prison the bar should be high (even though it’s too low for many people not on a board). But material consequences for companies are monetary and since a company’s life is money, that’s actually usually pretty compelling.

xenadu02 2y ago

> If I had killed someone, would I be allowed to buy my freedom In some cases this has been allowed, assuming it was not intentional. For example a neurosurgeon who accidentally hits someone in a crosswalk. The family can ask for no jail time so the surgeon can continue practicing because that's the only way the civil settlement will get paid. This depends on the victim or family's wishes, whether or not the prosecutor will approve, and what the judge thinks. From a societal view and the victim's view it might be a better outcome to get monetary compensation. FWIW since Boeing is too big to fail I'd love to see the US Government get rid of the current upper management and board. Put engineers back in charge and move HQ back to Seattle. Boeing's "new" CEO is another accountant. How much do you think he really cares or even understands the engineering and process issues? And how long do you think that "care" will last once the heat dies down?

sidewndr46 2y ago
You're confusing state law and federal law here. If I murder someone and the DoJ is involved in the prosecution for homicide it means I did something like kill a federal marshal. I'm not getting off with anything less than jail time.
- jjk166 2y ago
  That is very much not how the distinction between state and federal law works.
  - sidewndr46 2y ago
    In general federal law does not criminalize homicide and manslaughter. It's only when it happens to specific groups or in very specific places. So to get prosecuted by the DoJ, you'd need to kill one of those groups.
    - jjk166 2y ago
      Well one of those specific places is "happened on an airplane" which seems to be the relevant one for this analogy. For example, say you shove someone on a plane and they fall and hit their head - federal manslaughter that would likely be a candidate for deferred prosecution.