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> A new car built by my company ... While I think I get your point, I also believe that the background is very important. If your company applied standard engi

by pif 2y ago

> A new car built by my company ... While I think I get your point, I also believe that the background is very important. If your company applied standard engineering procedures, that's critically different from building a new product and actively hiding the differences with respect to the last one.

wizzwizz4 2y ago
Like Toyota's car with a “simulated stick shift”? https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45754176/toyota-manual-ev-prototype-drive/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45754176/toyota-manual-ev... > The prototype was convincing even when we tried to fool it. De-clutching leaves the car coasting, and selecting lower gears increases the regenerative braking, simulating the feeling of engine braking. When downshifting, it's possible to rev match by blipping the accelerator in the brief moment when the clutch is fully depressed. The penalty for letting the clutch up too abruptly when selecting a low gear is a bump of shift shock—momentarily over-revving the electric motors—and a similar lack of finesse when trying to pull away without sufficient revs results in a virtual stall. Sure, simulating the stall characteristics of an aeroplane is several orders of magnitude worse than simulating the stall characteristics of a car, but… still.
- maxerickson 2y ago
  It doesn't sound like Toyota is trying to hide anything, they are preparing to sell something they think people want. (The feature sounds stupid to me)
  - tstrimple 2y ago
    I've been eyeing the Ioniq 5 N which has the paddle shifting rev-limiting simulation stuff as well. Most of the reviewers really enjoy those features on a track. When coming up to a turn, the simulated RPM gives you much more contextual information than a pure electric experience does. The main point that kept coming up is the RPM levels when approaching a corner. They could tell if their speed was right in the approach based on the sound the engine was faking which is how they would drive a manual ICE car through the same track. Of course you can turn all that off and soften the suspension right back up in order to get the comfortable daily driving most folks are after. I don't think it belongs on most EV, but it certainly seems to enhance some. At least while we're still more familiar with the trappings of ICE performance vehicles.
    - maxerickson 2y ago
      I would guess that it will vanish when someone comes up with a similar feedback mechanism that is better aligned with the performance characteristics of the powertrain.
      - newsclues 2y ago
        I think the technology will explode when you can download a tune from classic or cool cars and have the sound and performance map of a Ferrari or Aston Martin when you go out for a fun drive on weekends. It’s not about max speed but enjoying the experience of driving.
    - mikestew 2y ago
      That's the most reasonable explanation I've heard for why the N model makes "unnecessary" noise. Because as an owner of a regular Ioniq 5, I feel it's an otherwise dumb idea. The reviews I've read all just say, "makes vroom-vroom noises, yeah!" But track-time feedback, okay, I can get along with that. (And it makes those steering wheel flappy paddles at least somewhat useful. The paddles on mine just change the regenerative braking level...which could have been done with a steering wheel button.)
- maximus-decimus 2y ago
  99.9% of cars with cvts pretend to switch gear instead of just acting like a CVT.
  - mrWiz 2y ago
    What's your source on this? My 2014 Outback does not pretend to shift gears, is it part of the 0.1%?
    - maximus-decimus 2y ago
      I watch a lot of car reviews for fun and they all comment on cvt behavior. The only recent car I've heard of that actually acts like a cvt is the mitsubishi mirage (maybe all mitsus? I don't really see any reviews of them). Then there's the new impreza that sometimes acts like a cvt and sometimes fakes gear shifts. Apparently they used to behave to cvts but people hated that so they switched to faking gears. Maybe your car predates that, I don't know what year they started doing that non-sense.
    - hughesjj 2y ago
      My 2021 Forrester absolutely pretends to shift gears, wonder what's different
mannykannot 2y ago
It is a stretch to call the MAXes a new product, even though it turned out to require more extensive work than envisioned, but the bit about actively hiding the differences is right on point.
- Retric 2y ago
  There’s a bigger difference between the MAX family and other versions of the 737 than there is between all the different crossovers a car company pumps out. Boeing 737 MAX 7 is 138,699 lbs vs 737 800 @ 90,710lb vs 737 100 @ 61.994 lbs. Hell the new 737 MAX 10 is ~203,000 lb.
  - mannykannot 2y ago
    This is not the issue that is raising questions of criminal liability.
    - Retric 2y ago
      It’s definitely part of the issue. Boeing was trying to pretend scaling the aircraft again and again wasn’t significant due to regulations and physics eventually disagreed.
      - mannykannot 2y ago
        Regardless of how one characterizes the magnitude of the changes, if the unanticipated difficulties had been handled openly, there would be no question of criminal liability. Furthermore (though it is also beside the point), physics has not ruled out the MAXes. In addition, the door-plug issue is tied in here on account of the 2021 deferred prosecution agreement, which also followed from Boeing's duplicity over the MAX issue.
        Retric 2y ago
        > Regardless of how one characterizes the magnitude of the changes, if the unanticipated difficulties had been handled openly, there would be no question of criminal liability You’re skipping over the first half of my statement. If the unexpected difficulties had been handled openly they would have needed to go through more regulatory hurdles. Physics didn’t put them into some kind of catch 22 situation the aircraft could have been safe, it just couldn’t be safe while playing games with regulators. That’s where criminal liability shows up.

by pif 2y ago

wizzwizz4 2y ago

Like Toyota's car with a “simulated stick shift”? https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45754176/toyota-manual-ev-prototype-drive/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a45754176/toyota-manual-ev... > The prototype was convincing even when we tried to fool it. De-clutching leaves the car coasting, and selecting lower gears increases the regenerative braking, simulating the feeling of engine braking. When downshifting, it's possible to rev match by blipping the accelerator in the brief moment when the clutch is fully depressed. The penalty for letting the clutch up too abruptly when selecting a low gear is a bump of shift shock—momentarily over-revving the electric motors—and a similar lack of finesse when trying to pull away without sufficient revs results in a virtual stall. Sure, simulating the stall characteristics of an aeroplane is several orders of magnitude worse than simulating the stall characteristics of a car, but… still.

maxerickson 2y ago
It doesn't sound like Toyota is trying to hide anything, they are preparing to sell something they think people want. (The feature sounds stupid to me)
- tstrimple 2y ago
  I've been eyeing the Ioniq 5 N which has the paddle shifting rev-limiting simulation stuff as well. Most of the reviewers really enjoy those features on a track. When coming up to a turn, the simulated RPM gives you much more contextual information than a pure electric experience does. The main point that kept coming up is the RPM levels when approaching a corner. They could tell if their speed was right in the approach based on the sound the engine was faking which is how they would drive a manual ICE car through the same track. Of course you can turn all that off and soften the suspension right back up in order to get the comfortable daily driving most folks are after. I don't think it belongs on most EV, but it certainly seems to enhance some. At least while we're still more familiar with the trappings of ICE performance vehicles.
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    I would guess that it will vanish when someone comes up with a similar feedback mechanism that is better aligned with the performance characteristics of the powertrain.
    - newsclues 2y ago
      I think the technology will explode when you can download a tune from classic or cool cars and have the sound and performance map of a Ferrari or Aston Martin when you go out for a fun drive on weekends. It’s not about max speed but enjoying the experience of driving.
  - mikestew 2y ago
    That's the most reasonable explanation I've heard for why the N model makes "unnecessary" noise. Because as an owner of a regular Ioniq 5, I feel it's an otherwise dumb idea. The reviews I've read all just say, "makes vroom-vroom noises, yeah!" But track-time feedback, okay, I can get along with that. (And it makes those steering wheel flappy paddles at least somewhat useful. The paddles on mine just change the regenerative braking level...which could have been done with a steering wheel button.)
maximus-decimus 2y ago
99.9% of cars with cvts pretend to switch gear instead of just acting like a CVT.
- mrWiz 2y ago
  What's your source on this? My 2014 Outback does not pretend to shift gears, is it part of the 0.1%?
  - maximus-decimus 2y ago
    I watch a lot of car reviews for fun and they all comment on cvt behavior. The only recent car I've heard of that actually acts like a cvt is the mitsubishi mirage (maybe all mitsus? I don't really see any reviews of them). Then there's the new impreza that sometimes acts like a cvt and sometimes fakes gear shifts. Apparently they used to behave to cvts but people hated that so they switched to faking gears. Maybe your car predates that, I don't know what year they started doing that non-sense.
  - hughesjj 2y ago
    My 2021 Forrester absolutely pretends to shift gears, wonder what's different

mannykannot 2y ago

It is a stretch to call the MAXes a new product, even though it turned out to require more extensive work than envisioned, but the bit about actively hiding the differences is right on point.

Retric 2y ago
There’s a bigger difference between the MAX family and other versions of the 737 than there is between all the different crossovers a car company pumps out. Boeing 737 MAX 7 is 138,699 lbs vs 737 800 @ 90,710lb vs 737 100 @ 61.994 lbs. Hell the new 737 MAX 10 is ~203,000 lb.
- mannykannot 2y ago
  This is not the issue that is raising questions of criminal liability.
  - Retric 2y ago
    It’s definitely part of the issue. Boeing was trying to pretend scaling the aircraft again and again wasn’t significant due to regulations and physics eventually disagreed.
    - mannykannot 2y ago
      Regardless of how one characterizes the magnitude of the changes, if the unanticipated difficulties had been handled openly, there would be no question of criminal liability. Furthermore (though it is also beside the point), physics has not ruled out the MAXes. In addition, the door-plug issue is tied in here on account of the 2021 deferred prosecution agreement, which also followed from Boeing's duplicity over the MAX issue.
      - Retric 2y ago
        > Regardless of how one characterizes the magnitude of the changes, if the unanticipated difficulties had been handled openly, there would be no question of criminal liability You’re skipping over the first half of my statement. If the unexpected difficulties had been handled openly they would have needed to go through more regulatory hurdles. Physics didn’t put them into some kind of catch 22 situation the aircraft could have been safe, it just couldn’t be safe while playing games with regulators. That’s where criminal liability shows up.