5 ms·

AI is already being used for picking targets in warzones - https://theconversation.com/israel-accused-of-using-ai-to-target-thousands-in-gaza-as-killer-algorith

by dbspin 2y ago

AI is already being used for picking targets in warzones - https://theconversation.com/israel-accused-of-using-ai-to-target-thousands-in-gaza-as-killer-algorithms-outpace-international-law-227453#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20army%20used%20a,by%20Israeli%20and%20Palestinian%20journalists https://theconversation.com/israel-accused-of-using-ai-to-ta.... LLM's will of course also be used, due to their convenience and superficial 'intelligence', and because of the layer of deniability creating a technical substrate between soldier and civilian victim provides - as has happened for two decades with drones.

mike_hearn 2y ago
Note that the IDF explicitly denied that story: https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-24/all-articles/idf-response-as-sent-to-the-guardian/ https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-24/all-art... Probably this is due to confusion over what the term "AI" means. If you do some queries on a database, and call yourself a "data scientist", and other people who call themselves data scientists do some AI, does that mean you're doing AI? For left wing journalists who want to undermine the Israelis (the story originally appeared in the Guardian) it'd be easy to hear what you want to hear from your sources and conflate using data with using AI. This is the kind of blurring that happens all the time with apparently technical terms once they leave the tech world and especially once they enter journalism.
- antihero 2y ago
  The IDF explicitly deny a lot of things, which turn out to be true.
  - adamtaylor_13 2y ago
    Just like… (checks notes)… oh yeah every government on the planet.
    - posterman 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - ignoramous 2y ago
        It is more sinister, it is apologia for genocide.
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    Yeah, but the Guardian explicitly state a lot of things which turn out to be not true also. Given that the underlying premise of the story is bizarre (is the IDF really so short of manpower that they can't select their own targets), and given that the sort of people who work at the Guardian openly loathe Israel, it makes more sense that the story is being misreported.
    - runarberg 2y ago
      More likely, the IDF is committing a genocide and are finding innovative ways to create a large list of targets which grants them plausible deniability.
    - racional 2y ago
      The underlying premise of the story is bizarre (is the IDF really so short of manpower that they can't select their own targets) The premise that the IDF would use some form of automated information processing to help select potential targets, in the year 2023? There's nothing at all unrealistic about this premise, of course. If anything it's rather bizarre to suggest that it might be. The sort of people who work at the Guardian openly loathe Israel This sounds you just don't have much to say about the substantive claims of these reports (which began with research by two Israeli publications, +972 and the Local Call -- and then taken further by The Guardian). Or would you say that former two "openly loathe Israel" also? Along with the Israeli sources that they're quoting?
- ethbr1 2y ago
  The "independent examinations" is doing a heavy lift there. At most charitable, that means a person is reviewing all data points before approval. At least charitable, that means a person is clicking approved after glancing at the values generated by the system. The press release doesn't help clarify that one way or the other. If you want to read thoughts by the guy who was in charge of building and operating the automated intelligence system, he wrote a book: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Machine-Team-Artificial-Intelligence-Revolutionize-ebook/dp/B09472K2YZ https://www.amazon.com/Human-Machine-Team-Artificial-Intelli...
- ignoramous 2y ago
  > Probably this is due to confusion over what the term "AI" means. AI is how it is marketed to the buyers. Either way, the system isn't a database or simple statistics. https://www.accessnow.org/publication/artificial-genocidal-intelligence-israel-gaza/ https://www.accessnow.org/publication/artificial-genocidal-i... Ex, autonomous weapons like "smart shooter" employed in Hebron and Bethlehem: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/06/06/palestinian-forum-highlights-threats-autonomous-weapons https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/06/06/palestinian-forum-highli...
  - nopromisessir 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - ignoramous 2y ago
      > a sophisticated approach to their defense A euphemism for apartheid and oppression? > sources are rife with bias What's biased about terming autonomous weapons as "AI"? Or, sounding alarm over dystopian surveillance enabled by AI? > The nuance matters. Like Ben Gurion terming Lehi "freedom fighters" as terrorists? And American Jewish intellectuals back then calling them fascists? > The history matters... After that, articles such as the ones you posted really read quite differently than most might expect. https://www.wetheblacksheep.com/p/i-changed-my-mind-on-zionismthanks https://www.wetheblacksheep.com/p/i-changed-my-mind-on-zioni...
      - SiempreViernes 2y ago
        The nuance of Ben-Gvir presumably ...
      - nopromisessir 2y ago
        I will spend no more than two comments on this issue. Most people have already made up their minds. There is little I can do about that, but perhaps someone else might see this and think twice. Personally, I have spent many thousands of hours on this topic. I have Palestinian relatives and have visited the Middle East. I have Arab friends there, both Christian and Muslim, whom I would gladly protect with my life. I am neither Jewish nor Israeli. There are countless reasons for me to support your side of this issue. However, I have not done so for a simple reason: I strive to remain fiercely objective. As a final note, in my youth, I held views similar to the ones you propagate. This was for a simple reason—I had not taken the time to understand the complexities of the Middle East. Even now, I cannot claim to fully comprehend them. However, over time, one realizes that while every story has two sides, the context is crucial. The contextual depth required to grasp the regrettable necessity of Israeli actions in their neighborhood can take years or even decades of study to reconcile. I expect to change few minds on this topic. Ultimately, it is up to the voters to decide. There is overwhelming bipartisan support for Israel in one of the world's most divided congresses, and this support stems more from shared values than from arms sales. I stand by my original comment. As I said, this will be my last on this topic. I hope this exchange proves useful to some.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
throwthrowuknow 2y ago
Why? There are many other types of AI or statistical methods that are easier, faster and cheaper to use not to mention better suited and far more accurate. Militaries have been employing statisticians since WWII to pick targets (and for all kinds of other things) this is just current-thing x2 so it’s being used to whip people into a frenzy.
- mrbungie 2y ago
  Because you can charge up a lot more when adding hot and hyped features like LLMs instead of doing good engineering.
  - throwthrowuknow 2y ago
    I don’t know for sure but I imagine getting blackballed by the defence department is not fun.
- tsunamifury 2y ago
  It can do limited battlefield reasoning where a remote pilot has significant latency. Call these LLMs stupid all you want but on focused tasks they can reason decently enough. And better than any past tech.
  - throwthrowuknow 2y ago
    That seems like something a special purpose model would be a lot better and faster at. Why use something that needs text as input and output? It would be slow and unreliable. If you need reaction time dependent decisions like collision avoidance or evasion for example then you can literally hard wire those in circuits that are faster than any other option.
    - tsunamifury 2y ago
      Yo, this wouldn't make flying decisions, this would evaluate battlefield situations for meta decisions like acceptable losses etc. The rest of course would be to slow.

by dbspin 2y ago

mike_hearn 2y ago

Note that the IDF explicitly denied that story: https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-24/all-articles/idf-response-as-sent-to-the-guardian/ https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-24/all-art... Probably this is due to confusion over what the term "AI" means. If you do some queries on a database, and call yourself a "data scientist", and other people who call themselves data scientists do some AI, does that mean you're doing AI? For left wing journalists who want to undermine the Israelis (the story originally appeared in the Guardian) it'd be easy to hear what you want to hear from your sources and conflate using data with using AI. This is the kind of blurring that happens all the time with apparently technical terms once they leave the tech world and especially once they enter journalism.

antihero 2y ago
The IDF explicitly deny a lot of things, which turn out to be true.
- adamtaylor_13 2y ago
  Just like… (checks notes)… oh yeah every government on the planet.
  - posterman 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - ignoramous 2y ago
      It is more sinister, it is apologia for genocide.
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  Yeah, but the Guardian explicitly state a lot of things which turn out to be not true also. Given that the underlying premise of the story is bizarre (is the IDF really so short of manpower that they can't select their own targets), and given that the sort of people who work at the Guardian openly loathe Israel, it makes more sense that the story is being misreported.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    More likely, the IDF is committing a genocide and are finding innovative ways to create a large list of targets which grants them plausible deniability.
  - racional 2y ago
    The underlying premise of the story is bizarre (is the IDF really so short of manpower that they can't select their own targets) The premise that the IDF would use some form of automated information processing to help select potential targets, in the year 2023? There's nothing at all unrealistic about this premise, of course. If anything it's rather bizarre to suggest that it might be. The sort of people who work at the Guardian openly loathe Israel This sounds you just don't have much to say about the substantive claims of these reports (which began with research by two Israeli publications, +972 and the Local Call -- and then taken further by The Guardian). Or would you say that former two "openly loathe Israel" also? Along with the Israeli sources that they're quoting?
ethbr1 2y ago
The "independent examinations" is doing a heavy lift there. At most charitable, that means a person is reviewing all data points before approval. At least charitable, that means a person is clicking approved after glancing at the values generated by the system. The press release doesn't help clarify that one way or the other. If you want to read thoughts by the guy who was in charge of building and operating the automated intelligence system, he wrote a book: https://www.amazon.com/Human-Machine-Team-Artificial-Intelligence-Revolutionize-ebook/dp/B09472K2YZ https://www.amazon.com/Human-Machine-Team-Artificial-Intelli...
ignoramous 2y ago
> Probably this is due to confusion over what the term "AI" means. AI is how it is marketed to the buyers. Either way, the system isn't a database or simple statistics. https://www.accessnow.org/publication/artificial-genocidal-intelligence-israel-gaza/ https://www.accessnow.org/publication/artificial-genocidal-i... Ex, autonomous weapons like "smart shooter" employed in Hebron and Bethlehem: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/06/06/palestinian-forum-highlights-threats-autonomous-weapons https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/06/06/palestinian-forum-highli...
- nopromisessir 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - ignoramous 2y ago
    > a sophisticated approach to their defense A euphemism for apartheid and oppression? > sources are rife with bias What's biased about terming autonomous weapons as "AI"? Or, sounding alarm over dystopian surveillance enabled by AI? > The nuance matters. Like Ben Gurion terming Lehi "freedom fighters" as terrorists? And American Jewish intellectuals back then calling them fascists? > The history matters... After that, articles such as the ones you posted really read quite differently than most might expect. https://www.wetheblacksheep.com/p/i-changed-my-mind-on-zionismthanks https://www.wetheblacksheep.com/p/i-changed-my-mind-on-zioni...
    - SiempreViernes 2y ago
      The nuance of Ben-Gvir presumably ...
    - nopromisessir 2y ago
      I will spend no more than two comments on this issue. Most people have already made up their minds. There is little I can do about that, but perhaps someone else might see this and think twice. Personally, I have spent many thousands of hours on this topic. I have Palestinian relatives and have visited the Middle East. I have Arab friends there, both Christian and Muslim, whom I would gladly protect with my life. I am neither Jewish nor Israeli. There are countless reasons for me to support your side of this issue. However, I have not done so for a simple reason: I strive to remain fiercely objective. As a final note, in my youth, I held views similar to the ones you propagate. This was for a simple reason—I had not taken the time to understand the complexities of the Middle East. Even now, I cannot claim to fully comprehend them. However, over time, one realizes that while every story has two sides, the context is crucial. The contextual depth required to grasp the regrettable necessity of Israeli actions in their neighborhood can take years or even decades of study to reconcile. I expect to change few minds on this topic. Ultimately, it is up to the voters to decide. There is overwhelming bipartisan support for Israel in one of the world's most divided congresses, and this support stems more from shared values than from arms sales. I stand by my original comment. As I said, this will be my last on this topic. I hope this exchange proves useful to some.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

throwthrowuknow 2y ago

Why? There are many other types of AI or statistical methods that are easier, faster and cheaper to use not to mention better suited and far more accurate. Militaries have been employing statisticians since WWII to pick targets (and for all kinds of other things) this is just current-thing x2 so it’s being used to whip people into a frenzy.

mrbungie 2y ago
Because you can charge up a lot more when adding hot and hyped features like LLMs instead of doing good engineering.
- throwthrowuknow 2y ago
  I don’t know for sure but I imagine getting blackballed by the defence department is not fun.
tsunamifury 2y ago
It can do limited battlefield reasoning where a remote pilot has significant latency. Call these LLMs stupid all you want but on focused tasks they can reason decently enough. And better than any past tech.
- throwthrowuknow 2y ago
  That seems like something a special purpose model would be a lot better and faster at. Why use something that needs text as input and output? It would be slow and unreliable. If you need reaction time dependent decisions like collision avoidance or evasion for example then you can literally hard wire those in circuits that are faster than any other option.
  - tsunamifury 2y ago
    Yo, this wouldn't make flying decisions, this would evaluate battlefield situations for meta decisions like acceptable losses etc. The rest of course would be to slow.