8 ms·

Using SMS as the control protocol seems like a bad idea. You are generating evidence with each command sent that may or may not be stored practically forever by

Using SMS as the control protocol seems like a bad idea. You are generating evidence with each command sent that may or may not be stored practically forever by the telcos.

Maxious 2y ago
Note that SMS is the protocol advertised to buyers but the unadvertised login credentials for the web portal let you manage the device without SMS
- no_time 2y ago
  If I understand correctly you need atleast one sms to know the credentials to the web portal. that's probably enough to get caught if someone finds the device.
  - franga2000 2y ago
    If you can get an unidentifiable SIM for the tracker, you can also get one + a burner phone for yourself. And if someone is stupid enough to not do that or to turn on either device in an identifiable location, they're beyond help.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
axegon_ 2y ago
That is valid for any centralized service in general. Fun fact: I am working on something in that field in my spare time(whenever I have both time and motivation) and I opted for LoRa instead specifically for that reason, even though it comes with a wide range of limitations: payload, range is determined by line of sight, no multiplexing and all that. But did make some real world testing late last year and the range I got was REALLY impressive. Easily 20% above what the manufacturer had put in the spec sheet - 12 and a half kilometers with an off the shelf dev board.
- snovv_crash 2y ago
  The 900MHz bands also have much better penetration. But even the 2.4 LoRa are a huge step up from the other chips I've seen eg. TI CC2500.
  - axegon_ 2y ago
    True, well I'm in the EU so 868MHz in my case. Still, it is very susceptible to external conditions. It truly is a hit or miss. Personally I host a things network gateway(indoors), I live on the last floor of a building at one of the highest points in the city and it is still very inconsistent when I've been fiddling with it. Back when I was doing my tests a few months ago I took a micro controller with a LoRa module up on the roof so those truly were ideal conditions. I have yet to test the CC2500.
pmx 2y ago
Wouldn't someone using this sort of thing also buy a cheap burner phone and throw-away sim card? They're easy to buy with cash and you don't need to register them or anything to use them. Supermarkets in the UK even sell sims with credit already loaded onto them.
- netsharc 2y ago
  I can't imagine the UK doesn't have laws to prevent anonymous SIM card purchases, because of terrorism fears. Some duckduckgo-ing suggests it's possible, e.g. someone wrote just go to Tesco to get one and there are no ID checks (but this was written 6 years ago). In any case, just like teenagers buying booze, it's probably not that hard to pay someone off the street to buy one for you.
  - fullspectrumdev 2y ago
    You can literally go into almost any corner shop in the UK and buy a SIM with no ID and cash. I do this regularly.
    - aembleton 2y ago
      Are you regularly swapping SIMs? Are you keeping the same IMEI number?
      - alibarber 2y ago
        If you're hacking around with phones or GSM boards for fun, on and off, it is cost effective to just grab one for a pound or so every time you want to do something as they sometimes come with a tiny bit of free data, or just a number to receive SMS on at least. If you don't top up (with say a tenner) within some months the card deactivates and becomes useless, so it's a no-commitment way to access the GSM network.
    - worstspotgain 2y ago
      Any chance your purchase triggers the ~238 surveillance cameras on your route back from the store to get a good idea of who they're dealing with? The UK used to be a surveillance outlier, but sadly other places have caught up in the meantime, including the US.
gwbas1c 2y ago
That's assuming you're using it for spying. A completely honest use of this is to track your car, (or other device with a USB port) in case of theft. If I had one of the Kias or Hyundais that were easy to steal, I'd totally slip one of these into the car.
- jandrese 2y ago
  The caveat being that these things are only doing cell tower triangulation, and not even a good job of it. So all it will be able to tell you is that your car is somewhere on the east side of the city or so. Although you will be able to listen in on the conversations of the car thieves and might pick up a clue from that. Realistically, these are 100% for stalking/espionage.
  - throwaway11460 2y ago
    I took the exact opposite conclusion from this information. How is it useful for stalking if it doesn't give more exact location? On the other hand if I'm looking for my own car that somebody took out of the city, this at least gives me a general idea of its location.
    - jjk166 2y ago
      For stalking/espionage, approximate locations (especially which can be refined over long observation periods and combined with other data) are often fine. Patterns like when does someone leave for work, what shifts do they work, where do they go on weekends, etc can be quite apparent. If your car is stolen, what good is knowing the general location?
      - throwaway11460 2y ago
        Hmm, I guess my eurothinking is showing. I work and live within a 5 km radius. I guess in the US you can get much more useful that's even though it's approximate. If my car is stolen and taken away, at least I can call that city/country police instead of waiting when it gets through the bureaucracy.

Using SMS as the control protocol seems like a bad idea. You are generating evidence with each command sent that may or may not be stored practically forever by the telcos.

Maxious 2y ago

Note that SMS is the protocol advertised to buyers but the unadvertised login credentials for the web portal let you manage the device without SMS

no_time 2y ago
If I understand correctly you need atleast one sms to know the credentials to the web portal. that's probably enough to get caught if someone finds the device.
- franga2000 2y ago
  If you can get an unidentifiable SIM for the tracker, you can also get one + a burner phone for yourself. And if someone is stupid enough to not do that or to turn on either device in an identifiable location, they're beyond help.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

axegon_ 2y ago

That is valid for any centralized service in general. Fun fact: I am working on something in that field in my spare time(whenever I have both time and motivation) and I opted for LoRa instead specifically for that reason, even though it comes with a wide range of limitations: payload, range is determined by line of sight, no multiplexing and all that. But did make some real world testing late last year and the range I got was REALLY impressive. Easily 20% above what the manufacturer had put in the spec sheet - 12 and a half kilometers with an off the shelf dev board.

snovv_crash 2y ago
The 900MHz bands also have much better penetration. But even the 2.4 LoRa are a huge step up from the other chips I've seen eg. TI CC2500.
- axegon_ 2y ago
  True, well I'm in the EU so 868MHz in my case. Still, it is very susceptible to external conditions. It truly is a hit or miss. Personally I host a things network gateway(indoors), I live on the last floor of a building at one of the highest points in the city and it is still very inconsistent when I've been fiddling with it. Back when I was doing my tests a few months ago I took a micro controller with a LoRa module up on the roof so those truly were ideal conditions. I have yet to test the CC2500.

pmx 2y ago

Wouldn't someone using this sort of thing also buy a cheap burner phone and throw-away sim card? They're easy to buy with cash and you don't need to register them or anything to use them. Supermarkets in the UK even sell sims with credit already loaded onto them.

netsharc 2y ago
I can't imagine the UK doesn't have laws to prevent anonymous SIM card purchases, because of terrorism fears. Some duckduckgo-ing suggests it's possible, e.g. someone wrote just go to Tesco to get one and there are no ID checks (but this was written 6 years ago). In any case, just like teenagers buying booze, it's probably not that hard to pay someone off the street to buy one for you.
- fullspectrumdev 2y ago
  You can literally go into almost any corner shop in the UK and buy a SIM with no ID and cash. I do this regularly.
  - aembleton 2y ago
    Are you regularly swapping SIMs? Are you keeping the same IMEI number?
    - alibarber 2y ago
      If you're hacking around with phones or GSM boards for fun, on and off, it is cost effective to just grab one for a pound or so every time you want to do something as they sometimes come with a tiny bit of free data, or just a number to receive SMS on at least. If you don't top up (with say a tenner) within some months the card deactivates and becomes useless, so it's a no-commitment way to access the GSM network.
  - worstspotgain 2y ago
    Any chance your purchase triggers the ~238 surveillance cameras on your route back from the store to get a good idea of who they're dealing with? The UK used to be a surveillance outlier, but sadly other places have caught up in the meantime, including the US.

gwbas1c 2y ago

That's assuming you're using it for spying. A completely honest use of this is to track your car, (or other device with a USB port) in case of theft. If I had one of the Kias or Hyundais that were easy to steal, I'd totally slip one of these into the car.

jandrese 2y ago
The caveat being that these things are only doing cell tower triangulation, and not even a good job of it. So all it will be able to tell you is that your car is somewhere on the east side of the city or so. Although you will be able to listen in on the conversations of the car thieves and might pick up a clue from that. Realistically, these are 100% for stalking/espionage.
- throwaway11460 2y ago
  I took the exact opposite conclusion from this information. How is it useful for stalking if it doesn't give more exact location? On the other hand if I'm looking for my own car that somebody took out of the city, this at least gives me a general idea of its location.
  - jjk166 2y ago
    For stalking/espionage, approximate locations (especially which can be refined over long observation periods and combined with other data) are often fine. Patterns like when does someone leave for work, what shifts do they work, where do they go on weekends, etc can be quite apparent. If your car is stolen, what good is knowing the general location?
    - throwaway11460 2y ago
      Hmm, I guess my eurothinking is showing. I work and live within a 5 km radius. I guess in the US you can get much more useful that's even though it's approximate. If my car is stolen and taken away, at least I can call that city/country police instead of waiting when it gets through the bureaucracy.