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The 'problem' was very obviously directed at politically correct English people who have no idea what the word means in other languages. Also, people don't hav

by baq 3y ago

The 'problem' was very obviously directed at politically correct English people who have no idea what the word means in other languages. Also, people don't have a problem with the 'git' brand, somehow?

deredede 3y ago
It is also very likely (if not definitely known) that the name was chosen at least in part because of the English meaning of the word, making the "people have no idea what the word means" argument moot. Outside of France, most users of Coq are in the US where it is taught in many universities. I am sure there were no female professors or TA whose job was made harder purely due to being "the coq teacher" (this is sarcastic, multiple such professors and TAs have mentioned having this type of issues on the Coq mailing list).
- hurutparittya 3y ago
  Oh no, giggling students! Someone do something, quick! I can only imagine the horror.
  - cccbbbaaa 3y ago
    This is what happens in french classrooms when you talk about bits :-)
    - littlestymaar 3y ago
      Don't forget strings.
- hiddencost 3y ago
  Reminds me of renaming NeurIPS. Another change we're better for.
- baq 3y ago
  So teachers complain on the mailing list instead of telling the students to grow the f* up. I don't doubt this is true, but I question the worth of complaints.
  - deredede 3y ago
    You are assuming a lot here: as far as I remember, someone proposed a name change, then these accounts came up supporting the change. It's not like people were complaining left and right on the mailing lists, but when the opportunity arose to fix once and for all a problem they had, they spoke in favor. And in my opinion multiple such accounts coming up are a good reason to proceed with a name change: the problem shows up as a pattern rather than isolated incidents, and a reasonable fix is identified.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    Ok, but you claimed otherwise in your parent comment.
- rugina 3y ago
  The English word bit has the same meaning in French as word Coq has in English.
  - deredede 3y ago
    I am French, I know :) But in my experience this simply causes some giggling in the classroom for a few days and that's it, which is not the experience I have seen recounted regarding Coq in the US. There are multiple differences between these cases: - The word "bit" is mostly used when speaking English, not in a French sentence (we use "octet" - I don't know the history here but I wouldn't be surprised that this is specifically because of the French meaning of "bit"). Coq, being the name of the tool, is used as-is in English sentences. [This is wrong, I somehow confused bit and byte here] - Even when used in a French sentence, the gender is different ("un bit" vs "une bite"), removing ambiguity - Bits are just one fraction of the curriculum, not the name of the tool used in every single lesson of the course I will refrain from commenting further on this topic, as it has been rehashed many times already and distracts from the work on rust-to-coq translation.
    - croemer 3y ago
      Are you sure? I'm not French but according to French wikipedia "octet" means "byte" not "bit": https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octet https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octet
      - deredede 3y ago
        Sorry, you are right of course! I somehow confused bit and byte, I have updated my comment. Thanks for pointing that out.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  Do you know what a «string» means in French? Or a «bite» (which is pronounced exactly like “bit”). If not, look that up. And besides lame jokes when 14 years old hear it for the first time (both male and female, btw), it's fine. It's essentially a problem of American puritanism (and likely also a problem of misogyny among students, but the solution to that really isn't to change the project name!)
rob74 3y ago
Well, the primary meaning of "cock" is a male chicken (also applied to some other male birds) in English too, irrespective of the slang terms. "Le coq" is also a symbol of France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_rooster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_rooster, see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Coq_Sportif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Coq_Sportif, and coq being a French project, it's understandable why they would choose this name (and have second thoughts about changing it because of other people's sensitivities).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- thih9 3y ago
  > and have second thoughts about changing it Do you have a source? As of now this is still in the roadmap[1] and I saw no information about removing it from there. [1]: https://github.com/coq/ceps/blob/coq-roadmap/text/069-coq-roadmap.md#change-of-name-coq---the-rocq-prover https://github.com/coq/ceps/blob/coq-roadmap/text/069-coq-ro...
  - baq 3y ago
    of course it's the 069 roadmap doc...
- yau8edq12i 3y ago
  "Coq" is also the first letters of the creator's name (Coquand).
Certhas 3y ago
I mean... I _do_ think that language sensitivities are overblown these days. E.g. the majority of women participants did not "agree or strongly agree" that NIPS should become NeurIPS, yet it did. GIMP and Git are words that most non-native English speakers don't have a strong association with. So they get a pass in most of the world. But cock is as universal a swear word as you will find on this planet. If I do a retreat in the village of Fucking, and write a compiler there, and then call it TFC -- the Fucking compiler, I know what I am doing.
- Gare 3y ago
  > If I do a retreat in the village of Fucking Funnily enough, they have renamed it to Fugging in 2021 because of annoying tourists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugging,_Upper_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugging,_Upper_Austria
- peoplefromibiza 3y ago
  > But cock is as universal a swear word is it? Are you confused with Dick? the name of course... Ironically the word dick comes from the German language, meaning "dominant ruler"
  - croemer 3y ago
    Dick means fat/big in German
    - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
      sorry, my bad, you're right of course, I meant not literally but as a short name for Richard
- didntcheck 3y ago
  Well we do have the Brain Fuck Scheduler Frankly I'd welcome more rejection of corporate safetyism. We're adults, not kids in a "Christian Minecraft server"
- yau8edq12i 3y ago

by baq 3y ago

deredede 3y ago

It is also very likely (if not definitely known) that the name was chosen at least in part because of the English meaning of the word, making the "people have no idea what the word means" argument moot. Outside of France, most users of Coq are in the US where it is taught in many universities. I am sure there were no female professors or TA whose job was made harder purely due to being "the coq teacher" (this is sarcastic, multiple such professors and TAs have mentioned having this type of issues on the Coq mailing list).

hurutparittya 3y ago
Oh no, giggling students! Someone do something, quick! I can only imagine the horror.
- cccbbbaaa 3y ago
  This is what happens in french classrooms when you talk about bits :-)
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    Don't forget strings.
hiddencost 3y ago
Reminds me of renaming NeurIPS. Another change we're better for.
baq 3y ago
So teachers complain on the mailing list instead of telling the students to grow the f* up. I don't doubt this is true, but I question the worth of complaints.
- deredede 3y ago
  You are assuming a lot here: as far as I remember, someone proposed a name change, then these accounts came up supporting the change. It's not like people were complaining left and right on the mailing lists, but when the opportunity arose to fix once and for all a problem they had, they spoke in favor. And in my opinion multiple such accounts coming up are a good reason to proceed with a name change: the problem shows up as a pattern rather than isolated incidents, and a reasonable fix is identified.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Ok, but you claimed otherwise in your parent comment.
rugina 3y ago
The English word bit has the same meaning in French as word Coq has in English.
- deredede 3y ago
  I am French, I know :) But in my experience this simply causes some giggling in the classroom for a few days and that's it, which is not the experience I have seen recounted regarding Coq in the US. There are multiple differences between these cases: - The word "bit" is mostly used when speaking English, not in a French sentence (we use "octet" - I don't know the history here but I wouldn't be surprised that this is specifically because of the French meaning of "bit"). Coq, being the name of the tool, is used as-is in English sentences. [This is wrong, I somehow confused bit and byte here] - Even when used in a French sentence, the gender is different ("un bit" vs "une bite"), removing ambiguity - Bits are just one fraction of the curriculum, not the name of the tool used in every single lesson of the course I will refrain from commenting further on this topic, as it has been rehashed many times already and distracts from the work on rust-to-coq translation.
  - croemer 3y ago
    Are you sure? I'm not French but according to French wikipedia "octet" means "byte" not "bit": https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octet https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octet
    - deredede 3y ago
      Sorry, you are right of course! I somehow confused bit and byte, I have updated my comment. Thanks for pointing that out.
littlestymaar 3y ago
Do you know what a «string» means in French? Or a «bite» (which is pronounced exactly like “bit”). If not, look that up. And besides lame jokes when 14 years old hear it for the first time (both male and female, btw), it's fine. It's essentially a problem of American puritanism (and likely also a problem of misogyny among students, but the solution to that really isn't to change the project name!)

rob74 3y ago

Well, the primary meaning of "cock" is a male chicken (also applied to some other male birds) in English too, irrespective of the slang terms. "Le coq" is also a symbol of France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_rooster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_rooster, see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Coq_Sportif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Coq_Sportif, and coq being a French project, it's understandable why they would choose this name (and have second thoughts about changing it because of other people's sensitivities).

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
thih9 3y ago
> and have second thoughts about changing it Do you have a source? As of now this is still in the roadmap[1] and I saw no information about removing it from there. [1]: https://github.com/coq/ceps/blob/coq-roadmap/text/069-coq-roadmap.md#change-of-name-coq---the-rocq-prover https://github.com/coq/ceps/blob/coq-roadmap/text/069-coq-ro...
- baq 3y ago
  of course it's the 069 roadmap doc...
yau8edq12i 3y ago
"Coq" is also the first letters of the creator's name (Coquand).

Certhas 3y ago

I mean... I _do_ think that language sensitivities are overblown these days. E.g. the majority of women participants did not "agree or strongly agree" that NIPS should become NeurIPS, yet it did. GIMP and Git are words that most non-native English speakers don't have a strong association with. So they get a pass in most of the world. But cock is as universal a swear word as you will find on this planet. If I do a retreat in the village of Fucking, and write a compiler there, and then call it TFC -- the Fucking compiler, I know what I am doing.

Gare 3y ago
> If I do a retreat in the village of Fucking Funnily enough, they have renamed it to Fugging in 2021 because of annoying tourists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugging,_Upper_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugging,_Upper_Austria
peoplefromibiza 3y ago
> But cock is as universal a swear word is it? Are you confused with Dick? the name of course... Ironically the word dick comes from the German language, meaning "dominant ruler"
- croemer 3y ago
  Dick means fat/big in German
  - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
    sorry, my bad, you're right of course, I meant not literally but as a short name for Richard
didntcheck 3y ago
Well we do have the Brain Fuck Scheduler Frankly I'd welcome more rejection of corporate safetyism. We're adults, not kids in a "Christian Minecraft server"
yau8edq12i 3y ago