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I think everyone should watch the Not Just Bikes YouTube channel especially their series on Strong Towns [1]. It shows just how bad parking mandates are and jus

I think everyone should watch the Not Just Bikes YouTube channel especially their series on Strong Towns [1]. It shows just how bad parking mandates are and just how bad American car centric city planning is. As they article pointed out, you need such vanguard cities to pave the way for better cities, with less parking and fingers crossed, fewer cars. [1] https://youtu.be/y_SXXTBypIg?si=N8PF71wMhVv6aH9G https://youtu.be/y_SXXTBypIg?si=N8PF71wMhVv6aH9G

p0w3n3d 2y ago
why not both? why not good parkings and nice bicycle routes?
- iknowstuff 2y ago
  Parking takes space. Outdoor parking keeps everything far apart, less walkable and unpleasant for anyone outside of a car. It also costs a fuck ton of money and is environmentally damaging. If you want good parking you gotta be willing to shell out its real unsubsidized cost of $10-$20/h in a multilevel garage.
  - antonkochubey 2y ago
    $10-20/hr is $7200 - 14400 per month. Is rent of 10 square meters really that expensive whereever it is that you live?
    - iknowstuff 2y ago
      Short term parking is indeed that expensive, depending on the garage. Obviously cheaper in less desirable areas.
      - close04 2y ago
        GP was probably referring to the value of the land. There are very few places in the world where land is rented for ~$1500/sqm/month. I don't live in the US but took San Francisco as a reference for an expensive city in terms of land and parking. A quick look on real estate websites [0] suggests you can buy land in San Francisco quite central for $10k-15k per square meter. If we take the value of the service, parking prices for San Francisco [1] are as high as $7/h and as low as free (at night). Unless I looked in all the wrong places or my math needs triple checking, the numbers you're very adamant about look wildly misaligned with reality even for peaks, let alone for average or median. That doesn't bode well at all for any opinion based on them. And it encourages the other side of the conversation to come with equally unrealistic claims about the cost and impact of "my biking lanes". In your top comment you recommended the Not Just Bikes YouTube channel. But it either didn't correct these views or worse, it encouraged them. Not a stellar recommendation. [0] Zillow but the URL us ungodly long. Easy to check it by yourself though. [1] https://www.sfmta.com/demand-responsive-parking-pricing https://www.sfmta.com/demand-responsive-parking-pricing
        resolutebat 2y ago
        GP did not mention San Francisco? Weekday parking in NYC garages starts from $20/hr, and $50/hr is not unheard of.
        close04 2y ago
        Fair enough but I don't need to tell you that if SF is "too cheap" and you have to pick the highest prices on the continent to make your point about general prices, you're making the wrong point. Not even getting into the whole "subsidized parking" gem, as if the normal price is "peak price" or else it's subsidized. This kind of ludicrous statements undermine any point one might try to make along side. Curious about their opinion on their own heavily subsidized bicycle, down from the normal price of $500k [0]. Bonus, there are more places to park for under $10/h in Manhattan than there are for $50 [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Trek_Madone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Trek_Madone [1] https://www.parkme.com/new-york-city-parking https://www.parkme.com/new-york-city-parking
        iknowstuff 2y ago
        The point of view is that even garage parking prices are depressed due to wide availability of on-street parking and parking space mandates in the country. Those serve, effectively, as subsidies for car owners. All that public space is wasted and made available for free to car owners, and the burden is shared by the rest of society. All that is just talking real estate - don’t forget the high environmental impact of concrete/asphalt, water runoff/evaporation issues, urban heat islands due to taking up greenery etc., higher incidence of accidents due to view obstruction and every other health and environmental issue that comes with encouragement of cars. I don’t know exactly what a fully unsubsidized cost of parking is, but I’m not using hyperbole. It’s closer to $10-20/h than the ridiculously low prices people have grown accustomed to.
- lwansbrough 2y ago
  Cars kind of ruin cities in a lot of ways. It's like asking why not embrace cancer, in some ways literally.
  - p0w3n3d 2y ago
    I live in Europe. If I even tried to commute with my children to music school using public transport it would take me additional 3 hours a week. That's why I am asking, is really car equal to cancer? Or is it this "I cannot see other people's needs if they are different than mine" or maybe "I will use law to ban other people from thinking otherwise" attitude?
    - snerbles 2y ago
      It is very much the latter, fueled by self-righteous conviction that is indignant at the mere idea of nuance.
    - Mawr 2y ago
      Wouldn't it be nice if the only other car traffic on the road was there because of use cases similarly niche to yours? Public transportation is great at eliminating the need for using a car for completely overkill trips like commuting and basic shopping. Having said that, given good cycling infrastructure, chances are you could either bring your kids along on a cargo bike [1] or they could just ride there themselves [2]. [1]: https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=84 https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=84 [2]: https://youtu.be/oHlpmxLTxpw?t=18 https://youtu.be/oHlpmxLTxpw?t=18
    - lwansbrough 2y ago
      In North America, motorists generally believe that any place not accessible by car is inaccessible. When you have a culture so deeply attached to driving, it reinforces the need to drive. This is why I call it a cancer. Motorists cannot live in a vacuum while also demanding that they be able to drive everywhere out of "convenience". That, and the fact that cars produce a huge number of carcinogens for people living in cities. Here's how the needs of drivers usually work: I want to live outside the city center, therefore I create the need to drive because I chose to live away from transit. This problem is mostly self inflicted out of a privilege of choice. So I am not particularly empathetic towards it. As far as using laws to ban natural human behaviour, what are your thoughts on: jaywalking? pedestrians crossing against red lights when there is no car traffic in sight? people walking on the shoulder of highways (sometimes the only infrastructure available)? Mandatory use of sidewalks? Parking minimums when building a house? There are laws governing all of these in the US (and some apply in Europe too) which ban the free movement of pedestrians. If cars are so dangerous that we have to enforce laws around simply walking in order to maintain safety, there's something wrong.
- pjc50 2y ago
  People can build parking if they want, but mandating it is a huge distortion.
- nunez 2y ago
  Because good parking encourages car use, increased car use encourages wide, high-speed roads, and bike routes are impediments to the development of wide, high-speed roads.
seoulmetro 2y ago
I think everyone should be wary that this channel is extremely biased and hands out rose tinted glasses for a lot of things. There are better channels out there if you truly care about planning. This one is just an emotional mess at most times.
- dagurp 2y ago
  Biased in what way? But I agree with you in some extent. I prefer his earlier videos because he's become very undiplomatic and I think he's alienating newer watchers.
  - seoulmetro 2y ago
    He seems to have some sort of aggressive blindness to "why" these places aren't like the Netherlands. It helps sell the point and get people outraged. There are great points made but just reaches a level of absurdity by the end of the videos.
- lwansbrough 2y ago
  I recommend About Here. It's Vancouver based but many of the issues they discuss are not unique to Vancouver or Canada.
  - dagurp 2y ago
    I second that. City Nerd is my favourite though.
- andyonthewings 2y ago
  You said there are better channels, please suggest a few.
- iknownothow 2y ago
  Nope, I disagree. It should be the first thing you watch before you move onto more technical videos. The videos are pleasant to watch and are made by a Canadian who moved to the Netherlands. They've got excellent A and B roll footage that truly shows you the contrast between American/Canadian and European cities. And it should be emotional because a commute isn't just about efficiency. One spends a sizeable portion of their life commuting. The human aspect of it can't be ignored. The depressing feeling you get while standing in the middle of a Walmart parking lot is real. At least it was for me.
verisimi 2y ago
[flagged]
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  It is so weird when people describe the removal of regulation as a government conspiracy to control. Single family homes and parking are not being banned. You can still build them in all of these zones. The difference is now you have a choice between building that or denser housing, you can choose the amount of parking to build. If anything the single use suburbia is even more controlling, meant to keep captive suburban consumers at the teat of the chains in shopping malls, and the auto and oil corporations.
  - verisimi 2y ago
    Is it impossible to you that removal (and addition) of legislation could form part of a coordinated thrust towards implementing certain other goals? Every local government has plans to achieve sustainable development goals (SDGs). Did you put anyone choose/vote for this? You might cheer it, but were you given a choice? You were not. Most simply think this is fine and go along with the effective transfer of power from local government, to the UN. It is global government applied locally.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      You could literally describe all representative government actions as a conspiracy this way. It’s so vague and baseless to be meaningless. If anything, Seattle (one of the subjects of TFA) is in a state where the governor has been directly elected to three terms with larger margins each time, where one of his signature policies is dealing with climate change, and his largest base of support is the Seattle metropolitan area.
    - aclatuts 2y ago
      I doubt you were old enough to be around and voting for councillors pushing for parking minimums back in the 1950s. You were born into a lot of rules you never chose or voted for. But you happen to like these parking rules.

p0w3n3d 2y ago

why not both? why not good parkings and nice bicycle routes?

iknowstuff 2y ago
Parking takes space. Outdoor parking keeps everything far apart, less walkable and unpleasant for anyone outside of a car. It also costs a fuck ton of money and is environmentally damaging. If you want good parking you gotta be willing to shell out its real unsubsidized cost of $10-$20/h in a multilevel garage.
- antonkochubey 2y ago
  $10-20/hr is $7200 - 14400 per month. Is rent of 10 square meters really that expensive whereever it is that you live?
  - iknowstuff 2y ago
    Short term parking is indeed that expensive, depending on the garage. Obviously cheaper in less desirable areas.
    - close04 2y ago
      GP was probably referring to the value of the land. There are very few places in the world where land is rented for ~$1500/sqm/month. I don't live in the US but took San Francisco as a reference for an expensive city in terms of land and parking. A quick look on real estate websites [0] suggests you can buy land in San Francisco quite central for $10k-15k per square meter. If we take the value of the service, parking prices for San Francisco [1] are as high as $7/h and as low as free (at night). Unless I looked in all the wrong places or my math needs triple checking, the numbers you're very adamant about look wildly misaligned with reality even for peaks, let alone for average or median. That doesn't bode well at all for any opinion based on them. And it encourages the other side of the conversation to come with equally unrealistic claims about the cost and impact of "my biking lanes". In your top comment you recommended the Not Just Bikes YouTube channel. But it either didn't correct these views or worse, it encouraged them. Not a stellar recommendation. [0] Zillow but the URL us ungodly long. Easy to check it by yourself though. [1] https://www.sfmta.com/demand-responsive-parking-pricing https://www.sfmta.com/demand-responsive-parking-pricing
      - resolutebat 2y ago
        GP did not mention San Francisco? Weekday parking in NYC garages starts from $20/hr, and $50/hr is not unheard of.
        close04 2y ago
        Fair enough but I don't need to tell you that if SF is "too cheap" and you have to pick the highest prices on the continent to make your point about general prices, you're making the wrong point. Not even getting into the whole "subsidized parking" gem, as if the normal price is "peak price" or else it's subsidized. This kind of ludicrous statements undermine any point one might try to make along side. Curious about their opinion on their own heavily subsidized bicycle, down from the normal price of $500k [0]. Bonus, there are more places to park for under $10/h in Manhattan than there are for $50 [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Trek_Madone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_Trek_Madone [1] https://www.parkme.com/new-york-city-parking https://www.parkme.com/new-york-city-parking
        iknowstuff 2y ago
        The point of view is that even garage parking prices are depressed due to wide availability of on-street parking and parking space mandates in the country. Those serve, effectively, as subsidies for car owners. All that public space is wasted and made available for free to car owners, and the burden is shared by the rest of society. All that is just talking real estate - don’t forget the high environmental impact of concrete/asphalt, water runoff/evaporation issues, urban heat islands due to taking up greenery etc., higher incidence of accidents due to view obstruction and every other health and environmental issue that comes with encouragement of cars. I don’t know exactly what a fully unsubsidized cost of parking is, but I’m not using hyperbole. It’s closer to $10-20/h than the ridiculously low prices people have grown accustomed to.
lwansbrough 2y ago
Cars kind of ruin cities in a lot of ways. It's like asking why not embrace cancer, in some ways literally.
- p0w3n3d 2y ago
  I live in Europe. If I even tried to commute with my children to music school using public transport it would take me additional 3 hours a week. That's why I am asking, is really car equal to cancer? Or is it this "I cannot see other people's needs if they are different than mine" or maybe "I will use law to ban other people from thinking otherwise" attitude?
  - snerbles 2y ago
    It is very much the latter, fueled by self-righteous conviction that is indignant at the mere idea of nuance.
  - Mawr 2y ago
    Wouldn't it be nice if the only other car traffic on the road was there because of use cases similarly niche to yours? Public transportation is great at eliminating the need for using a car for completely overkill trips like commuting and basic shopping. Having said that, given good cycling infrastructure, chances are you could either bring your kids along on a cargo bike [1] or they could just ride there themselves [2]. [1]: https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=84 https://youtu.be/rQhzEnWCgHA?t=84 [2]: https://youtu.be/oHlpmxLTxpw?t=18 https://youtu.be/oHlpmxLTxpw?t=18
  - lwansbrough 2y ago
    In North America, motorists generally believe that any place not accessible by car is inaccessible. When you have a culture so deeply attached to driving, it reinforces the need to drive. This is why I call it a cancer. Motorists cannot live in a vacuum while also demanding that they be able to drive everywhere out of "convenience". That, and the fact that cars produce a huge number of carcinogens for people living in cities. Here's how the needs of drivers usually work: I want to live outside the city center, therefore I create the need to drive because I chose to live away from transit. This problem is mostly self inflicted out of a privilege of choice. So I am not particularly empathetic towards it. As far as using laws to ban natural human behaviour, what are your thoughts on: jaywalking? pedestrians crossing against red lights when there is no car traffic in sight? people walking on the shoulder of highways (sometimes the only infrastructure available)? Mandatory use of sidewalks? Parking minimums when building a house? There are laws governing all of these in the US (and some apply in Europe too) which ban the free movement of pedestrians. If cars are so dangerous that we have to enforce laws around simply walking in order to maintain safety, there's something wrong.
pjc50 2y ago
People can build parking if they want, but mandating it is a huge distortion.
nunez 2y ago
Because good parking encourages car use, increased car use encourages wide, high-speed roads, and bike routes are impediments to the development of wide, high-speed roads.

seoulmetro 2y ago

I think everyone should be wary that this channel is extremely biased and hands out rose tinted glasses for a lot of things. There are better channels out there if you truly care about planning. This one is just an emotional mess at most times.

dagurp 2y ago
Biased in what way? But I agree with you in some extent. I prefer his earlier videos because he's become very undiplomatic and I think he's alienating newer watchers.
- seoulmetro 2y ago
  He seems to have some sort of aggressive blindness to "why" these places aren't like the Netherlands. It helps sell the point and get people outraged. There are great points made but just reaches a level of absurdity by the end of the videos.
lwansbrough 2y ago
I recommend About Here. It's Vancouver based but many of the issues they discuss are not unique to Vancouver or Canada.
- dagurp 2y ago
  I second that. City Nerd is my favourite though.
andyonthewings 2y ago
You said there are better channels, please suggest a few.
iknownothow 2y ago
Nope, I disagree. It should be the first thing you watch before you move onto more technical videos. The videos are pleasant to watch and are made by a Canadian who moved to the Netherlands. They've got excellent A and B roll footage that truly shows you the contrast between American/Canadian and European cities. And it should be emotional because a commute isn't just about efficiency. One spends a sizeable portion of their life commuting. The human aspect of it can't be ignored. The depressing feeling you get while standing in the middle of a Walmart parking lot is real. At least it was for me.

verisimi 2y ago

[flagged]

bobthepanda 2y ago
It is so weird when people describe the removal of regulation as a government conspiracy to control. Single family homes and parking are not being banned. You can still build them in all of these zones. The difference is now you have a choice between building that or denser housing, you can choose the amount of parking to build. If anything the single use suburbia is even more controlling, meant to keep captive suburban consumers at the teat of the chains in shopping malls, and the auto and oil corporations.
- verisimi 2y ago
  Is it impossible to you that removal (and addition) of legislation could form part of a coordinated thrust towards implementing certain other goals? Every local government has plans to achieve sustainable development goals (SDGs). Did you put anyone choose/vote for this? You might cheer it, but were you given a choice? You were not. Most simply think this is fine and go along with the effective transfer of power from local government, to the UN. It is global government applied locally.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    You could literally describe all representative government actions as a conspiracy this way. It’s so vague and baseless to be meaningless. If anything, Seattle (one of the subjects of TFA) is in a state where the governor has been directly elected to three terms with larger margins each time, where one of his signature policies is dealing with climate change, and his largest base of support is the Seattle metropolitan area.
  - aclatuts 2y ago
    I doubt you were old enough to be around and voting for councillors pushing for parking minimums back in the 1950s. You were born into a lot of rules you never chose or voted for. But you happen to like these parking rules.