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You should not be allowed to graduate from a software engineering program without taking a course on ethics.

by __loam 2y ago

ghaff 2y ago
Do you honestly think that would do any good with someone who has decided to hack the system for their personal benefit no matter the consequences to everyone else. I'd suspect that this was a troll except that it's an account that's been around for a while and a lot of people actually do think this way. If it makes you feel any better though I'm unconvinced that mass spamming applications is actually very effective though it does carry collateral damage.
- __loam 2y ago
  Yeah what I've heard I've heard about it is that recruiters hate it and have moved away from cold applications. Networking and working with recruiters is way nicer and a lot less work in my experience. And I of course think they're an ass hole, I just think I'm general there's a pattern of scammy behavior in software that I don't really perceive in other industries. My education was not in computer science originally and one of the books I read was To Engineer is Human by Petroski. The professional standards are just higher in fields like aerospace and civil engineering. You might say that software doesn't kill people when it fails but I think that's underselling the powerful role software plays in our society. I think it's completely reasonable to push for higher ethical standards in the field even if it means some undergrads are annoyed they have to take a humanities course.
throwawaysleep 2y ago
I did take several courses in ethics. I internalized several key lessons. 1. People who stand up for what’s right get fired and blacklisted. Perhaps killed. 2. People who get caught get second chances or never even lose their ill gotten gains. Enron fraudsters have rebuilt their wealth becoming new executives and public speakers on ethics. This is in addition to any wealth they hid away. Boeing has killed many people before the 737 max for similar sloppiness. It didn’t matter then either. 3. Low level fraud virtually never gets prosecuted, yet alone unethical behaviour. We had plenty of cases where we studied some embezzler who got fired. The penalty for ill gotten millions is being fired? That’s just the day in the life of an employee in the world of regular layoffs. Here’s the problem with every ethics class I have taken. Who won in the end except in the most extreme cases (Madoff)? Usually the crook.
Ferret7446 2y ago
Ethics is a cultural problem. You can't teach it in a college course.
- __loam 2y ago
  Talking about it can't hurt
southernplaces7 2y ago
Considering the kinds of companies that so many software engineers end up working for and to what ends, that's sort of laughable. How nice your shiny ethics might feel glued to your chest while you in any case go help the major tech companies do everything in their power to squeeze as much revenue out of users and every ounce of personal privacy too, among other things, including parasitic dark patterns, intentional user manipulation, blatant dishonesty, industrial scales of data theft and so forth..
- __loam 2y ago
  That's a reason in favor of teaching ethics

You should not be allowed to graduate from a software engineering program without taking a course on ethics.

by __loam 2y ago

You should not be allowed to graduate from a software engineering program without taking a course on ethics.

Do you honestly think that would do any good with someone who has decided to hack the system for their personal benefit no matter the consequences to everyone else. I'd suspect that this was a troll except that it's an account that's been around for a while and a lot of people actually do think this way. If it makes you feel any better though I'm unconvinced that mass spamming applications is actually very effective though it does carry collateral damage.

__loam 2y ago
Yeah what I've heard I've heard about it is that recruiters hate it and have moved away from cold applications. Networking and working with recruiters is way nicer and a lot less work in my experience. And I of course think they're an ass hole, I just think I'm general there's a pattern of scammy behavior in software that I don't really perceive in other industries. My education was not in computer science originally and one of the books I read was To Engineer is Human by Petroski. The professional standards are just higher in fields like aerospace and civil engineering. You might say that software doesn't kill people when it fails but I think that's underselling the powerful role software plays in our society. I think it's completely reasonable to push for higher ethical standards in the field even if it means some undergrads are annoyed they have to take a humanities course.

throwawaysleep 2y ago

I did take several courses in ethics. I internalized several key lessons. 1. People who stand up for what’s right get fired and blacklisted. Perhaps killed. 2. People who get caught get second chances or never even lose their ill gotten gains. Enron fraudsters have rebuilt their wealth becoming new executives and public speakers on ethics. This is in addition to any wealth they hid away. Boeing has killed many people before the 737 max for similar sloppiness. It didn’t matter then either. 3. Low level fraud virtually never gets prosecuted, yet alone unethical behaviour. We had plenty of cases where we studied some embezzler who got fired. The penalty for ill gotten millions is being fired? That’s just the day in the life of an employee in the world of regular layoffs. Here’s the problem with every ethics class I have taken. Who won in the end except in the most extreme cases (Madoff)? Usually the crook.

Ferret7446 2y ago

Ethics is a cultural problem. You can't teach it in a college course.

__loam 2y ago
Talking about it can't hurt

southernplaces7 2y ago

Considering the kinds of companies that so many software engineers end up working for and to what ends, that's sort of laughable. How nice your shiny ethics might feel glued to your chest while you in any case go help the major tech companies do everything in their power to squeeze as much revenue out of users and every ounce of personal privacy too, among other things, including parasitic dark patterns, intentional user manipulation, blatant dishonesty, industrial scales of data theft and so forth..

__loam 2y ago
That's a reason in favor of teaching ethics