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Maybe the majority of Canadians think that having great higher education institutions and thr people who work in them is a good fit for their way of life, but h

Maybe the majority of Canadians think that having great higher education institutions and thr people who work in them is a good fit for their way of life, but having Silicon Valley companies and people making SV salaries around epuld make their lives worse? If so, this is great: Canadians don't want to live with the tech crowd, so they provide them with the skills so they can move elsewhere, make their dreams come tuee, and not bother the majority that don't want their presence. NB some actual Canadians in this thread have voiced this possibility.

vasco 2y ago
That makes zero sense, governments invest in education to improve their own country, not to train other countries work forces. If you read anything about Canada ever you will also know they have a bunch of policies to try and stop the brain drain and to recruit tech workers from abroad.
- saithound 2y ago
  > That makes zero sense, governments invest in education to improve their own country The idea is precisely that not having SV types around _improves_ the country, i.e. makes it closer to the preferences of Canadians. And yes, having a foreign tech worker doing 9-to-5 in a large legacy company for thoroughly average salaries is very different from having a SV-style startup culture. There is very little process in Canada to make life difficult for the former style of company, and plenty of process to make operations difficult for the latter. If not having SV folk improves Canada for Canadians, and hqving SV folks improves America for Americans, then this is just mutually beneficial trade. Efforts to try and stop brain drain still makes sense: it's even better if you can convince the citizens you trained to engage in the economic activity you actually want instead of economic activity that you find undesirable, but if you're unable to convince most of them, letting them go is still better than having them stay and engage in their undesirable behavior anyway. Compare: if a large minority of Icelanders wanted to work for the Baby (which Iceland doesn't have), theb stopping the brain drain (convincing them to work in the Merchant Fleet) is the best outcome, but funneling them out (training them in merchant navigation and watching them join the Danish Navy) would still be preferable to them engaging in their desired behavior anyway (form their own pirate gang preying on the very Merchant Fleet you're trying to advantage).
  - vasco 2y ago
    > And yes, having a foreign tech worker doing 9-to-5 in a large legacy company for thoroughly average salaries is very different from having a SV-style startup culture Immigrants coming into countries start companies at a disproportionate rate compared to natives. Other than unquantifiable statements about what "Canadians want" everything you mentioned so far to justify this idea of "canada doesnt care if tech graduates leave" is falsifiable by data.
    - saithound 2y ago
      One last time, the claim is not that "Canada doesn't care". It's that it prefers it to the alternative of SV-style companies operating from Canada. Which is consistent both with data, facts on the ground (yes, Canada has laws and administrative processes designed to make SV-style startups difficult to start there, that's precisely what people complain about above!), and the comments of actual Canadians in this very thread. You're welcome to present data falsifying the actual claim if you think you have it (instead of the "Canada doesn't care" straw man or misunderstanding that you repeat above, noting that so far you have not even refuted your own straw man by presenting any data).
      - vasco 2y ago
        > Maybe the majority of Canadians think that (...) having Silicon Valley companies and people making SV salaries around epuld (sic) make their lives worse This is your claim that I engaged with. If your claim is true it literally means that Canadians do not care if those people leave, in fact they would prefer it. My argument is that you're wrong and Canada and it's people would rather have more tech workers and more tech companies. I don't believe I'm misunderstanding so I think we should probably both give up at this point.
        saithound 2y ago
        I don't tuink it implies that they don't care, it only implies that they find it preferable to one certain alternative (staying AND turning Vancouver into north-SF; the conjunction is load-bearing), and I think this much looks true and well-supported by the facts and revealed preferences. They're not willing to change the rules and procedures that people complain about here, and if you propose they do so, as many have, they say no to that explicitly. But I agree that we should probably disengage, so (barring exceptional new insights on my end) will leave this as my last post in the thread. Thanks for the chat.
- vintermann 2y ago
  It's not as if Canada doesn't benefit from machine learning advances. It just doesn't by having many ML start-ups as a tax base. Canada's skilled immigration policy is a train wreck, but that's another issue.
  - newcan1 2y ago
    Canada's skilled immigration policy is amazing. It is attracting some of the best talent in the world. What it is not able to do is retain the talent and is just ending up as a stepping stone to the US. All it needs to do is two things: 1. Provide tax deductions for rent and interest on home loans for new home buyers. 2. Reduce the average taxes to just slightly less than the US tax rate by 5-10% upto 500k. Then watch the magic happen.

vasco 2y ago

That makes zero sense, governments invest in education to improve their own country, not to train other countries work forces. If you read anything about Canada ever you will also know they have a bunch of policies to try and stop the brain drain and to recruit tech workers from abroad.

saithound 2y ago
> That makes zero sense, governments invest in education to improve their own country The idea is precisely that not having SV types around _improves_ the country, i.e. makes it closer to the preferences of Canadians. And yes, having a foreign tech worker doing 9-to-5 in a large legacy company for thoroughly average salaries is very different from having a SV-style startup culture. There is very little process in Canada to make life difficult for the former style of company, and plenty of process to make operations difficult for the latter. If not having SV folk improves Canada for Canadians, and hqving SV folks improves America for Americans, then this is just mutually beneficial trade. Efforts to try and stop brain drain still makes sense: it's even better if you can convince the citizens you trained to engage in the economic activity you actually want instead of economic activity that you find undesirable, but if you're unable to convince most of them, letting them go is still better than having them stay and engage in their undesirable behavior anyway. Compare: if a large minority of Icelanders wanted to work for the Baby (which Iceland doesn't have), theb stopping the brain drain (convincing them to work in the Merchant Fleet) is the best outcome, but funneling them out (training them in merchant navigation and watching them join the Danish Navy) would still be preferable to them engaging in their desired behavior anyway (form their own pirate gang preying on the very Merchant Fleet you're trying to advantage).
- vasco 2y ago
  > And yes, having a foreign tech worker doing 9-to-5 in a large legacy company for thoroughly average salaries is very different from having a SV-style startup culture Immigrants coming into countries start companies at a disproportionate rate compared to natives. Other than unquantifiable statements about what "Canadians want" everything you mentioned so far to justify this idea of "canada doesnt care if tech graduates leave" is falsifiable by data.
  - saithound 2y ago
    One last time, the claim is not that "Canada doesn't care". It's that it prefers it to the alternative of SV-style companies operating from Canada. Which is consistent both with data, facts on the ground (yes, Canada has laws and administrative processes designed to make SV-style startups difficult to start there, that's precisely what people complain about above!), and the comments of actual Canadians in this very thread. You're welcome to present data falsifying the actual claim if you think you have it (instead of the "Canada doesn't care" straw man or misunderstanding that you repeat above, noting that so far you have not even refuted your own straw man by presenting any data).
    - vasco 2y ago
      > Maybe the majority of Canadians think that (...) having Silicon Valley companies and people making SV salaries around epuld (sic) make their lives worse This is your claim that I engaged with. If your claim is true it literally means that Canadians do not care if those people leave, in fact they would prefer it. My argument is that you're wrong and Canada and it's people would rather have more tech workers and more tech companies. I don't believe I'm misunderstanding so I think we should probably both give up at this point.
      - saithound 2y ago
        I don't tuink it implies that they don't care, it only implies that they find it preferable to one certain alternative (staying AND turning Vancouver into north-SF; the conjunction is load-bearing), and I think this much looks true and well-supported by the facts and revealed preferences. They're not willing to change the rules and procedures that people complain about here, and if you propose they do so, as many have, they say no to that explicitly. But I agree that we should probably disengage, so (barring exceptional new insights on my end) will leave this as my last post in the thread. Thanks for the chat.
vintermann 2y ago
It's not as if Canada doesn't benefit from machine learning advances. It just doesn't by having many ML start-ups as a tax base. Canada's skilled immigration policy is a train wreck, but that's another issue.
- newcan1 2y ago
  Canada's skilled immigration policy is amazing. It is attracting some of the best talent in the world. What it is not able to do is retain the talent and is just ending up as a stepping stone to the US. All it needs to do is two things: 1. Provide tax deductions for rent and interest on home loans for new home buyers. 2. Reduce the average taxes to just slightly less than the US tax rate by 5-10% upto 500k. Then watch the magic happen.