4 ms·

It's absolutely just a country like us, the fact that you need to ask a question like this ... Actually it's a very different place. And this seems to be one

It's absolutely just a country like us, the fact that you need to ask a question like this ... Actually it's a very different place. And this seems to be one of the missing pieces of your analysis here.

brabel 2y ago
Have you been there? I have, and I think anyone who has wouldn't say they're very different than us (unless you haven't been to many other countries to have a "reference" for what "different" means). I have been to Belarus as well, multiple times. I can absolutely guarantee to you that the people are the same as in the USA or EU. They're different in only the most superficial things. They also love their families, they also love to buy things, to have fun on the beach, to cook a nice meal. Where they differ is on their religion and culture, though they're about as close to America in that regard as most other EU nations (because like them, they're also mostly Christians and having a "general" European culture and values, they're very much close to the USA, whose culture is so influenced by that European culture due to its population being majority European descendants). You may argue "but politics are so different" but that's not an argument for "they're not a country like us". Politics can change easily because you don't need everyone to change, like with culture... is Spain not the same country since it became a democracy in as recently as 1976?? So I would say it's a huge mistake to try to classify a country by its politics. The Russians may eventually come around to a more democratic system, but like with the Chinese, they may prefer not to. Admitting that there are other possible systems that may be beneficial to the people is important for us in the West, after all, according to our own values, diversity is a good thing, isn't it? It's difficult and the West has a history of not accepting that other cultures may not want to be like themselves (in that respect, it's hard to differentiate us today from the jesuits in the past, we're basically doing the same thing, just instead of Catholicism we're now exporting "democratic values" or whatever), and even though we've learned that trying to force-civilize others is not the greatest idea, we still don't seem to accept we may not be the pinnacle of civilization.
- mopsi 2y ago
  I happened to live in the USSR for quite a few decades against my will, and I've seen many westerners with such naive impressions. You don't even understand how detached from reality you are. It's exactly the opposite of what you believe: people look the same only in the most superficial things that you experience during short trips as a tourist. You will learn that after you try to live a life there for a few years and start to stumble upon situations that would be solved one way in the western world and are solved completely the other way in that world. A major difference from the western world is that Russia never developed a civil society independent from the government. In Europe, America and many other places, people have self-organized into everything from church groups to baseball leagues and gun clubs, run these organizations on their own dime, democratially choose people to lead the organizations and represent their interests, and keep them accountable. It fosters a culture of self-sufficiency and participation that enables democracy on the societal level. It creates the expectation that everyone deserves have their say and be heard, and that leaders are accountable to members and stakeholders and should pursue things that people tell them to pursue. And from these small local groups, large nationwide movements arise that can and do openly steer and challenge the government and its policies. Russia has never had that. Its people have never had a say in how the country should be run, not directly through elections, nor indirectly through social activism. The only tolerated power vertical is the government. Environmental groups, human rights activists, ethnic minority groups, etc all get shut down when they start to have any meaningful impact. You can't even publish your thoughts and distribute them as a newsletter, and most people are completely indifferent to that because they are accustomed to a society that is run from top-down by unelected leaders. The eternal sunshine in the Kremlin tells how the things are, and their role is to take pride in suffering. You can see that attitude spectacularly on display on that Youtube channel that has thousands of hours of interviews with Russian POWs in Ukrainian captivity. One of the most amazing things that keeps repeating from one interview to another is how it never occurred to them that they could just refuse to go when conscripted, refuse to sign papers declaring them volunteers, run away and go into hiding, or oppose in some other way. It never occured to them that they could question what authorities tell them to do. These are people who have been breed over centuries into total, unquestionable submission. Roughly half a million are dead in completely senseless war, and there hasn't been not even a single large anti-war protest. Russia experiences one Vietnam war's worth of American losses every 6 weeks without any pushback from the society. This is totally unimaginable in the western world. Just look at the Gaza protests all over the western world. Nothing comparable exists in the Russian world over their involvement in Ukraine, despite their role as instigator, larger scale and much more horrific results.

brabel 2y ago

Have you been there? I have, and I think anyone who has wouldn't say they're very different than us (unless you haven't been to many other countries to have a "reference" for what "different" means). I have been to Belarus as well, multiple times. I can absolutely guarantee to you that the people are the same as in the USA or EU. They're different in only the most superficial things. They also love their families, they also love to buy things, to have fun on the beach, to cook a nice meal. Where they differ is on their religion and culture, though they're about as close to America in that regard as most other EU nations (because like them, they're also mostly Christians and having a "general" European culture and values, they're very much close to the USA, whose culture is so influenced by that European culture due to its population being majority European descendants). You may argue "but politics are so different" but that's not an argument for "they're not a country like us". Politics can change easily because you don't need everyone to change, like with culture... is Spain not the same country since it became a democracy in as recently as 1976?? So I would say it's a huge mistake to try to classify a country by its politics. The Russians may eventually come around to a more democratic system, but like with the Chinese, they may prefer not to. Admitting that there are other possible systems that may be beneficial to the people is important for us in the West, after all, according to our own values, diversity is a good thing, isn't it? It's difficult and the West has a history of not accepting that other cultures may not want to be like themselves (in that respect, it's hard to differentiate us today from the jesuits in the past, we're basically doing the same thing, just instead of Catholicism we're now exporting "democratic values" or whatever), and even though we've learned that trying to force-civilize others is not the greatest idea, we still don't seem to accept we may not be the pinnacle of civilization.

mopsi 2y ago
I happened to live in the USSR for quite a few decades against my will, and I've seen many westerners with such naive impressions. You don't even understand how detached from reality you are. It's exactly the opposite of what you believe: people look the same only in the most superficial things that you experience during short trips as a tourist. You will learn that after you try to live a life there for a few years and start to stumble upon situations that would be solved one way in the western world and are solved completely the other way in that world. A major difference from the western world is that Russia never developed a civil society independent from the government. In Europe, America and many other places, people have self-organized into everything from church groups to baseball leagues and gun clubs, run these organizations on their own dime, democratially choose people to lead the organizations and represent their interests, and keep them accountable. It fosters a culture of self-sufficiency and participation that enables democracy on the societal level. It creates the expectation that everyone deserves have their say and be heard, and that leaders are accountable to members and stakeholders and should pursue things that people tell them to pursue. And from these small local groups, large nationwide movements arise that can and do openly steer and challenge the government and its policies. Russia has never had that. Its people have never had a say in how the country should be run, not directly through elections, nor indirectly through social activism. The only tolerated power vertical is the government. Environmental groups, human rights activists, ethnic minority groups, etc all get shut down when they start to have any meaningful impact. You can't even publish your thoughts and distribute them as a newsletter, and most people are completely indifferent to that because they are accustomed to a society that is run from top-down by unelected leaders. The eternal sunshine in the Kremlin tells how the things are, and their role is to take pride in suffering. You can see that attitude spectacularly on display on that Youtube channel that has thousands of hours of interviews with Russian POWs in Ukrainian captivity. One of the most amazing things that keeps repeating from one interview to another is how it never occurred to them that they could just refuse to go when conscripted, refuse to sign papers declaring them volunteers, run away and go into hiding, or oppose in some other way. It never occured to them that they could question what authorities tell them to do. These are people who have been breed over centuries into total, unquestionable submission. Roughly half a million are dead in completely senseless war, and there hasn't been not even a single large anti-war protest. Russia experiences one Vietnam war's worth of American losses every 6 weeks without any pushback from the society. This is totally unimaginable in the western world. Just look at the Gaza protests all over the western world. Nothing comparable exists in the Russian world over their involvement in Ukraine, despite their role as instigator, larger scale and much more horrific results.