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It's somewhat weird to see Dart still chugging along. A language that cannot figure out what it's for. Was it a better Javascript? Oh, old history Was it just

by troupo 3y ago

It's somewhat weird to see Dart still chugging along. A language that cannot figure out what it's for. Was it a better Javascript? Oh, old history Was it just a failed project that Google Analytics team used? Oh, old history It's for Flutter and app development? Not anymore It's native cross-platform compiled language for apps and backend with a hodgepodge of features haphazardly thrown in? Yes, for now.

TobTobXX 3y ago
> It's for Flutter and app development? Not anymore What do you mean?? Did you read the article, because it is clearly about Dart and Flutter.
- thayne 3y ago
  I assume it is a reference to Google laying off all their dart and flutter engineers [1]. So I'm not sure who is still maintaining either project. [1]: https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/01/google-lays-off-staff-from-flutter-dart-python-weeks-before-its-developer-conference/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/01/google-lays-off-staff-from...
  - isoos 3y ago
    Clearly not all, that would be a different announcement.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    This is wrong, they didn't lay off core developers on the Dart or Flutter teams, only some devops people maintaining infrastructure for them.
- troupo 3y ago
  I meant that now it's backend, and frontend, and apps, oh my.
hgyjnbdet 3y ago
I quite like the language and hope it continues to chug along. As a beginner who wanted to create a cross platform app it was a no brainer for me over the ever increasing amount of web frameworks, or writing the same app in multiple native languages. Might be my ignorance as a beginner but I don't see a hodgepodge of haphazard features, but the beginning of a true cross platform language.
isoos 3y ago
Why do you think it must be one thing or the other? It can be better than Javascript, used for Flutter and app development, and also cross-platform compiled and used for backend.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jimbob45 3y ago
Dart beat TypeScript to existence by a solid year. The web should run on Dart right now but Google fumbled the ball. Web search was synonymous with Google until they enshittified their product to irrelevancy a few years back. Where once using Bing was unthinkable, several of my coworkers now happily use it. They then proceeded to fumble the incredible lead they had with AI just a few years ago. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they let their Chrome monopoly slip through their fingers as well. It's ridiculous how Google's BoD hasn't axed everyone in a leadership role at that company given how many gems they've let slip through their fingers.
- hgyjnbdet 3y ago
  Whilst I can agree mostly with your last three points I don't think any company, even apple, could at this point replace JavaScript on the web. It's too ingrained. Sure there's typescript but that's not a whole sale replacement, the end result is still JavaScript.
  - jimbob45 3y ago
    Dart’s JS VM was reportedly faster than vanilla JS. It could have wholesale replaced JS if Google had really leaned into it.
    - hgyjnbdet 2y ago
      Yeah but you've still got to convince everyone to rewrite all the JavaScript in it. That's a big ask even for Google with a faster VM. If they'd pushed it I would predict chrome market share taking a dive. Personally I think they did the right thing pivoting away from trying to replace JavaScript.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  > The web should run on Dart right now but Google fumbled the ball. It's clear you didn't see the fervor around this around a decade ago [0][1], as it was universally panned as a move that would only strengthen Google's browser monopoly (as if sites started using more Dart, other browsers would have no choice but to add in Dart support). Personally I am very glad that we don't have a built-in Dart compiler in the browser, compile to JS languages are more flexible and now we have an even more robust and even-handed solution in the form of WASM, as now any language can compile to an open standard, not just Dart (which also has WASM support now). Another argument in favor of not having Dart in Chrome is allowing its development to be much more flexible, as this article shows, rather than being hampered by the standards committee [2]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3600874 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3600874 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9264531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9264531 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40355071 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40355071
markdog12 3y ago
Was it a better Javascript? Yes. Was it just a failed project that Google Analytics team used? No. It's for Flutter and app development? It's a general-purpose programming language. It's native cross-platform compiled language for apps and backend? It's a general-purpose programming language with multiple compilation targets, including native. hodgepodge of features haphazardly thrown in? Certainly not.

by troupo 3y ago

TobTobXX 3y ago

> It's for Flutter and app development? Not anymore What do you mean?? Did you read the article, because it is clearly about Dart and Flutter.

thayne 3y ago
I assume it is a reference to Google laying off all their dart and flutter engineers [1]. So I'm not sure who is still maintaining either project. [1]: https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/01/google-lays-off-staff-from-flutter-dart-python-weeks-before-its-developer-conference/ https://techcrunch.com/2024/05/01/google-lays-off-staff-from...
- isoos 3y ago
  Clearly not all, that would be a different announcement.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  This is wrong, they didn't lay off core developers on the Dart or Flutter teams, only some devops people maintaining infrastructure for them.
troupo 3y ago
I meant that now it's backend, and frontend, and apps, oh my.

hgyjnbdet 3y ago

I quite like the language and hope it continues to chug along. As a beginner who wanted to create a cross platform app it was a no brainer for me over the ever increasing amount of web frameworks, or writing the same app in multiple native languages. Might be my ignorance as a beginner but I don't see a hodgepodge of haphazard features, but the beginning of a true cross platform language.

isoos 3y ago

Why do you think it must be one thing or the other? It can be better than Javascript, used for Flutter and app development, and also cross-platform compiled and used for backend.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jimbob45 3y ago

Dart beat TypeScript to existence by a solid year. The web should run on Dart right now but Google fumbled the ball. Web search was synonymous with Google until they enshittified their product to irrelevancy a few years back. Where once using Bing was unthinkable, several of my coworkers now happily use it. They then proceeded to fumble the incredible lead they had with AI just a few years ago. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they let their Chrome monopoly slip through their fingers as well. It's ridiculous how Google's BoD hasn't axed everyone in a leadership role at that company given how many gems they've let slip through their fingers.

hgyjnbdet 3y ago
Whilst I can agree mostly with your last three points I don't think any company, even apple, could at this point replace JavaScript on the web. It's too ingrained. Sure there's typescript but that's not a whole sale replacement, the end result is still JavaScript.
- jimbob45 3y ago
  Dart’s JS VM was reportedly faster than vanilla JS. It could have wholesale replaced JS if Google had really leaned into it.
  - hgyjnbdet 2y ago
    Yeah but you've still got to convince everyone to rewrite all the JavaScript in it. That's a big ask even for Google with a faster VM. If they'd pushed it I would predict chrome market share taking a dive. Personally I think they did the right thing pivoting away from trying to replace JavaScript.
satvikpendem 3y ago
> The web should run on Dart right now but Google fumbled the ball. It's clear you didn't see the fervor around this around a decade ago [0][1], as it was universally panned as a move that would only strengthen Google's browser monopoly (as if sites started using more Dart, other browsers would have no choice but to add in Dart support). Personally I am very glad that we don't have a built-in Dart compiler in the browser, compile to JS languages are more flexible and now we have an even more robust and even-handed solution in the form of WASM, as now any language can compile to an open standard, not just Dart (which also has WASM support now). Another argument in favor of not having Dart in Chrome is allowing its development to be much more flexible, as this article shows, rather than being hampered by the standards committee [2]. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3600874 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3600874 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9264531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9264531 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40355071 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40355071

markdog12 3y ago

Was it a better Javascript? Yes. Was it just a failed project that Google Analytics team used? No. It's for Flutter and app development? It's a general-purpose programming language. It's native cross-platform compiled language for apps and backend? It's a general-purpose programming language with multiple compilation targets, including native. hodgepodge of features haphazardly thrown in? Certainly not.