3 ms·

>The title seems to willfully invoke the far more sinister “organ-harvesting” No place on earth is more annoyingly finicky about headlines than HN. Black mark

>The title seems to willfully invoke the far more sinister “organ-harvesting” No place on earth is more annoyingly finicky about headlines than HN. Black market organ harvesting of live prisoners didn't even cross my mind when reading this headline. What makes you think they are willfully invoking that trope? The use of "vanish"? Could you illustrate a better, but still concise, title?

ceejayoz 2y ago
"used after death without family consent to train medical students" is much more accurate than "vanish". Quite a few people hold conspiratorial opinions of organ transplantation, like that doctors won't work as hard to save people flagged as donors. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/organ-donation/art-20047529 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health...
- ziddoap 2y ago
  I believe that "Alabama prisoners' organs used after death without family consent to train medical students" exceeds HNs title character limit, and it also leaves out the fact that the blame for it is being shifted around -- an important component (arguably the most important component) of this story.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- salad-tycoon 2y ago
  I dislike the term conspiratorial since it’s so loaded. That said, this is a topic from which much tears and ink have spilled forth into the world. On one hand, a good candidate for harvesting can give many lives. On the other, what is death anyways? According to what criteria? You are very much alive in order to donate. Brain death you say? How do we measure a consciousness? Do we even know what it is? When does the “soul” leave and a person becomes a nonbeing? In hospitals I’ve been at a nurse can declare you dead if there are two nurses and they listen to your heart for a minute. I think organ donation is a great good. I don’t think it should be a decision taken lightly or, worse yet, taken in order to stave off any appearances of appearing conspiratorial.
dsr_ 2y ago
It crossed my mind, because it is strongly suspected that China does that to low-level political prisoners and members of despised minority groups. 2018: https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harvesting-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harve...
- Natsu 2y ago
  Yeah, it also crossed my mind.
- darby_eight 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - nickloewen 2y ago
    This looks like it’s a story about some Israeli individuals being arrested for organ trafficking, and not at all a story about prisoners in Israel having their organs harvested.
    - darby_eight 2y ago
      Sure, but I'd be absolutely flabbergasted if they didn't come from kidnapped Palestinians.
- woooooo 2y ago
  It's confirmed that, if you're executed by the state for treason there, you become an organ donor as part of that deal. Waste not and all that. The speculative part is where people start making organs the main point of the whole thing, it has a great ick factor if you're doing nationalist flamewars.
  - more_corn 2y ago
    “Deal” implies consent. But it’s also a dangerous financial incentive. Oh innocent? Humm, I can make 10k from his organs if that evidence gets lost.
darby_eight 2y ago
> Black market organ harvesting of live prisoners didn't even cross my mind when reading this headline. It's not that crazy: https://www.westernmassnews.com/2023/05/11/getting-answers-bill-proposes-shorter-prison-sentences-organ-bone-marrow-donations/ https://www.westernmassnews.com/2023/05/11/getting-answers-b...
more_corn 2y ago
Words have meaning and meaning is important.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  Yes, and none of the words in this title mean "illegally harvesting organs of live prisoners and selling them on the black market".
idiotsecant 2y ago
It definitely is what I thought of and the headline is pretty clearly deceptively cultivating this response.
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
alwa 2y ago
Maybe something along the lines of “When Alabama prisoners die, autopsies conducted without consulting families.” Or “When inmates die, Alabama donates their organs for research. Some families object.” The idea being to preserve the substance of the concern—that families are being deprived of their legitimate say in the autopsy—without suggesting it’s more than it is. “Prisoners’ organs vanish” suggests mystery, insinuates conspiracy, and suggests that the prisoners may be alive—none of which is borne out by the substance of the article. Prisons exist to control people’s bodies, and I suspect this might be part of why, decade after decade, lurid allegations pop up about prisons (and hospitals, and orphanages, and asylums) violating prisoner’s bodily integrity while they’re institutionalized. Whether or not you put stock in the allegations, media outlets have for decades kept the story of “organ harvesting” from prisoners for transplant and for profit (and for the Bodies exhibition) circulating in the public imagination (e.g. [0], [1], [2]) The article’s allegations are about an ethical problem, but a subtle one to do with consent and postmortem bodily integrity—nobody’s suggesting that Alabama is doing anything macabre to prisoners’ bodies beyond what routinely happens in autopsies. This is a “we should fix this policy default” problem, not a “body snatcher vanishes organs” problem. [0] https://www.jstor.org/stable/41639005 https://www.jstor.org/stable/41639005 [1] https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/unfounded-claims-organ-harvesting-reignite-embers-decades-old-hospital-scandal-and https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/unfounded-claims-organ-ha... [2] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/06/china-un-human-rights-experts-alarmed-organ-harvesting-allegations https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/06/china-un-hum...
- ziddoap 2y ago
  All of your proposed headlines leave out a substantive component of the article: the blame is being shifted around and families are unable to find out who can be held accountable. In fact, I think this is the main thrust of the whole article! Unethical things are happening, and all of the agencies/bodies responsible are pointing fingers at another agency/body. >“Prisoners’ organs vanish” suggests mystery, insinuates conspiracy, and suggests that the prisoners may be alive I have no idea how the word vanish implies the prisoners were still alive. I'm baffled and that a few people have said the same. >nobody’s suggesting that Alabama is doing anything macabre to prisoners’ bodies beyond what routinely happens in autopsies. Indeed! And I don't believe the title implies otherwise. Unless the word "vanish" has evolved to somehow imply harvesting of live organs since I last read the definition. Admittedly, enough people are saying it that I'm starting to think I'm the weird one for not assuming the word vanish implies harvesting organs out of live prisoners.

ceejayoz 2y ago

"used after death without family consent to train medical students" is much more accurate than "vanish". Quite a few people hold conspiratorial opinions of organ transplantation, like that doctors won't work as hard to save people flagged as donors. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/organ-donation/art-20047529 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health...

ziddoap 2y ago
I believe that "Alabama prisoners' organs used after death without family consent to train medical students" exceeds HNs title character limit, and it also leaves out the fact that the blame for it is being shifted around -- an important component (arguably the most important component) of this story.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
salad-tycoon 2y ago
I dislike the term conspiratorial since it’s so loaded. That said, this is a topic from which much tears and ink have spilled forth into the world. On one hand, a good candidate for harvesting can give many lives. On the other, what is death anyways? According to what criteria? You are very much alive in order to donate. Brain death you say? How do we measure a consciousness? Do we even know what it is? When does the “soul” leave and a person becomes a nonbeing? In hospitals I’ve been at a nurse can declare you dead if there are two nurses and they listen to your heart for a minute. I think organ donation is a great good. I don’t think it should be a decision taken lightly or, worse yet, taken in order to stave off any appearances of appearing conspiratorial.

dsr_ 2y ago

It crossed my mind, because it is strongly suspected that China does that to low-level political prisoners and members of despised minority groups. 2018: https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harvesting-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harve...

Natsu 2y ago
Yeah, it also crossed my mind.
darby_eight 2y ago
[flagged]
- nickloewen 2y ago
  This looks like it’s a story about some Israeli individuals being arrested for organ trafficking, and not at all a story about prisoners in Israel having their organs harvested.
  - darby_eight 2y ago
    Sure, but I'd be absolutely flabbergasted if they didn't come from kidnapped Palestinians.
woooooo 2y ago
It's confirmed that, if you're executed by the state for treason there, you become an organ donor as part of that deal. Waste not and all that. The speculative part is where people start making organs the main point of the whole thing, it has a great ick factor if you're doing nationalist flamewars.
- more_corn 2y ago
  “Deal” implies consent. But it’s also a dangerous financial incentive. Oh innocent? Humm, I can make 10k from his organs if that evidence gets lost.

darby_eight 2y ago

> Black market organ harvesting of live prisoners didn't even cross my mind when reading this headline. It's not that crazy: https://www.westernmassnews.com/2023/05/11/getting-answers-bill-proposes-shorter-prison-sentences-organ-bone-marrow-donations/ https://www.westernmassnews.com/2023/05/11/getting-answers-b...

more_corn 2y ago

Words have meaning and meaning is important.

ziddoap 2y ago
Yes, and none of the words in this title mean "illegally harvesting organs of live prisoners and selling them on the black market".

idiotsecant 2y ago

It definitely is what I thought of and the headline is pretty clearly deceptively cultivating this response.

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

alwa 2y ago

Maybe something along the lines of “When Alabama prisoners die, autopsies conducted without consulting families.” Or “When inmates die, Alabama donates their organs for research. Some families object.” The idea being to preserve the substance of the concern—that families are being deprived of their legitimate say in the autopsy—without suggesting it’s more than it is. “Prisoners’ organs vanish” suggests mystery, insinuates conspiracy, and suggests that the prisoners may be alive—none of which is borne out by the substance of the article. Prisons exist to control people’s bodies, and I suspect this might be part of why, decade after decade, lurid allegations pop up about prisons (and hospitals, and orphanages, and asylums) violating prisoner’s bodily integrity while they’re institutionalized. Whether or not you put stock in the allegations, media outlets have for decades kept the story of “organ harvesting” from prisoners for transplant and for profit (and for the Bodies exhibition) circulating in the public imagination (e.g. [0], [1], [2]) The article’s allegations are about an ethical problem, but a subtle one to do with consent and postmortem bodily integrity—nobody’s suggesting that Alabama is doing anything macabre to prisoners’ bodies beyond what routinely happens in autopsies. This is a “we should fix this policy default” problem, not a “body snatcher vanishes organs” problem. [0] https://www.jstor.org/stable/41639005 https://www.jstor.org/stable/41639005 [1] https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/unfounded-claims-organ-harvesting-reignite-embers-decades-old-hospital-scandal-and https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/unfounded-claims-organ-ha... [2] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/06/china-un-human-rights-experts-alarmed-organ-harvesting-allegations https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/06/china-un-hum...

ziddoap 2y ago
All of your proposed headlines leave out a substantive component of the article: the blame is being shifted around and families are unable to find out who can be held accountable. In fact, I think this is the main thrust of the whole article! Unethical things are happening, and all of the agencies/bodies responsible are pointing fingers at another agency/body. >“Prisoners’ organs vanish” suggests mystery, insinuates conspiracy, and suggests that the prisoners may be alive I have no idea how the word vanish implies the prisoners were still alive. I'm baffled and that a few people have said the same. >nobody’s suggesting that Alabama is doing anything macabre to prisoners’ bodies beyond what routinely happens in autopsies. Indeed! And I don't believe the title implies otherwise. Unless the word "vanish" has evolved to somehow imply harvesting of live organs since I last read the definition. Admittedly, enough people are saying it that I'm starting to think I'm the weird one for not assuming the word vanish implies harvesting organs out of live prisoners.