4 ms·

And also to be clear, “vanish” from people who died in state custody, post-autopsy—not from people who are currently prisoners. And “vanish” to the same medical

by alwa 2y ago

And also to be clear, “vanish” from people who died in state custody, post-autopsy—not from people who are currently prisoners. And “vanish” to the same medical training uses as non-prisoners’ donated organs. The (very reasonable) question being whether it’s appropriate for the warden rather than the family to authorize the donation, when family is in the picture. The title seems to willfully invoke the far more sinister “organ-harvesting” trope that’s alarmingly a live issue in other carceral systems to this day [0], but that’s not what the article’s actual allegations describe. [0] e.g. https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/06/china-un-human-rights-experts-alarmed-organ-harvesting-allegations https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/06/china-un-hum...

ziddoap 2y ago
>The title seems to willfully invoke the far more sinister “organ-harvesting” No place on earth is more annoyingly finicky about headlines than HN. Black market organ harvesting of live prisoners didn't even cross my mind when reading this headline. What makes you think they are willfully invoking that trope? The use of "vanish"? Could you illustrate a better, but still concise, title?
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  "used after death without family consent to train medical students" is much more accurate than "vanish". Quite a few people hold conspiratorial opinions of organ transplantation, like that doctors won't work as hard to save people flagged as donors. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/organ-donation/art-20047529 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health...
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    I believe that "Alabama prisoners' organs used after death without family consent to train medical students" exceeds HNs title character limit, and it also leaves out the fact that the blame for it is being shifted around -- an important component (arguably the most important component) of this story.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - salad-tycoon 2y ago
    I dislike the term conspiratorial since it’s so loaded. That said, this is a topic from which much tears and ink have spilled forth into the world. On one hand, a good candidate for harvesting can give many lives. On the other, what is death anyways? According to what criteria? You are very much alive in order to donate. Brain death you say? How do we measure a consciousness? Do we even know what it is? When does the “soul” leave and a person becomes a nonbeing? In hospitals I’ve been at a nurse can declare you dead if there are two nurses and they listen to your heart for a minute. I think organ donation is a great good. I don’t think it should be a decision taken lightly or, worse yet, taken in order to stave off any appearances of appearing conspiratorial.
- dsr_ 2y ago
  It crossed my mind, because it is strongly suspected that China does that to low-level political prisoners and members of despised minority groups. 2018: https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harvesting-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harve...
  - Natsu 2y ago
    Yeah, it also crossed my mind.
  - darby_eight 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - nickloewen 2y ago
      This looks like it’s a story about some Israeli individuals being arrested for organ trafficking, and not at all a story about prisoners in Israel having their organs harvested.
      - darby_eight 2y ago
        Sure, but I'd be absolutely flabbergasted if they didn't come from kidnapped Palestinians.
  - woooooo 2y ago
    It's confirmed that, if you're executed by the state for treason there, you become an organ donor as part of that deal. Waste not and all that. The speculative part is where people start making organs the main point of the whole thing, it has a great ick factor if you're doing nationalist flamewars.
    - more_corn 2y ago
      “Deal” implies consent. But it’s also a dangerous financial incentive. Oh innocent? Humm, I can make 10k from his organs if that evidence gets lost.
- darby_eight 2y ago
  > Black market organ harvesting of live prisoners didn't even cross my mind when reading this headline. It's not that crazy: https://www.westernmassnews.com/2023/05/11/getting-answers-bill-proposes-shorter-prison-sentences-organ-bone-marrow-donations/ https://www.westernmassnews.com/2023/05/11/getting-answers-b...
- more_corn 2y ago
  Words have meaning and meaning is important.
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    Yes, and none of the words in this title mean "illegally harvesting organs of live prisoners and selling them on the black market".
- idiotsecant 2y ago
  It definitely is what I thought of and the headline is pretty clearly deceptively cultivating this response.
- aaron695 2y ago
  [dead]
- alwa 2y ago
  Maybe something along the lines of “When Alabama prisoners die, autopsies conducted without consulting families.” Or “When inmates die, Alabama donates their organs for research. Some families object.” The idea being to preserve the substance of the concern—that families are being deprived of their legitimate say in the autopsy—without suggesting it’s more than it is. “Prisoners’ organs vanish” suggests mystery, insinuates conspiracy, and suggests that the prisoners may be alive—none of which is borne out by the substance of the article. Prisons exist to control people’s bodies, and I suspect this might be part of why, decade after decade, lurid allegations pop up about prisons (and hospitals, and orphanages, and asylums) violating prisoner’s bodily integrity while they’re institutionalized. Whether or not you put stock in the allegations, media outlets have for decades kept the story of “organ harvesting” from prisoners for transplant and for profit (and for the Bodies exhibition) circulating in the public imagination (e.g. [0], [1], [2]) The article’s allegations are about an ethical problem, but a subtle one to do with consent and postmortem bodily integrity—nobody’s suggesting that Alabama is doing anything macabre to prisoners’ bodies beyond what routinely happens in autopsies. This is a “we should fix this policy default” problem, not a “body snatcher vanishes organs” problem. [0] https://www.jstor.org/stable/41639005 https://www.jstor.org/stable/41639005 [1] https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/unfounded-claims-organ-harvesting-reignite-embers-decades-old-hospital-scandal-and https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/unfounded-claims-organ-ha... [2] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/06/china-un-human-rights-experts-alarmed-organ-harvesting-allegations https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/06/china-un-hum...
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    All of your proposed headlines leave out a substantive component of the article: the blame is being shifted around and families are unable to find out who can be held accountable. In fact, I think this is the main thrust of the whole article! Unethical things are happening, and all of the agencies/bodies responsible are pointing fingers at another agency/body. >“Prisoners’ organs vanish” suggests mystery, insinuates conspiracy, and suggests that the prisoners may be alive I have no idea how the word vanish implies the prisoners were still alive. I'm baffled and that a few people have said the same. >nobody’s suggesting that Alabama is doing anything macabre to prisoners’ bodies beyond what routinely happens in autopsies. Indeed! And I don't believe the title implies otherwise. Unless the word "vanish" has evolved to somehow imply harvesting of live organs since I last read the definition. Admittedly, enough people are saying it that I'm starting to think I'm the weird one for not assuming the word vanish implies harvesting organs out of live prisoners.
sdwr 2y ago
> The title seems to willfully invoke the far more sinister “organ-harvesting” trope That's exactly what I thought this was about until halfway through the article - for-profit prisons expanding in another direction
sangnoir 2y ago
> The title seems to willfully invoke the far more sinister “organ-harvesting” trope that’s alarmingly a live issue in other carceral systems to this day What's the functional difference between the two to the bereaved? I don't think finding out they waited until after the autopsy to steal the organs is comforting. I would feel much better about the harvested organs of a loved one being transplanted to save a life vs being placed on a jar for medical students, I suspect most voluntary donors prefer their organs be used for transplants rather than medical training. So to me, what Alabama is doing is fat more sinister.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  The concern is that a system that can use prisoners’ organs for transplants will want to do so more frequently, for profit. A motive for capital sentences. Biological waste that was going to be disposed of isn’t as scary.
  - sangnoir 2y ago
    > Biological waste that was going to be disposed of isn’t as scary. Why is this excuse fine for one practice and not the other?
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      For the same reason taking parts out of my car is less concerning when it’s in the junkyard instead of my driveway.
      - sangnoir 2y ago
        Wait: are you talking aboubt harvesting organs (from the dead) for transplanting vs teaching medical students, or harvesting them from cadavers vs living people? We may be having different conversations here.

by alwa 2y ago

ziddoap 2y ago

>The title seems to willfully invoke the far more sinister “organ-harvesting” No place on earth is more annoyingly finicky about headlines than HN. Black market organ harvesting of live prisoners didn't even cross my mind when reading this headline. What makes you think they are willfully invoking that trope? The use of "vanish"? Could you illustrate a better, but still concise, title?

ceejayoz 2y ago
"used after death without family consent to train medical students" is much more accurate than "vanish". Quite a few people hold conspiratorial opinions of organ transplantation, like that doctors won't work as hard to save people flagged as donors. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/organ-donation/art-20047529 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health...
- ziddoap 2y ago
  I believe that "Alabama prisoners' organs used after death without family consent to train medical students" exceeds HNs title character limit, and it also leaves out the fact that the blame for it is being shifted around -- an important component (arguably the most important component) of this story.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- salad-tycoon 2y ago
  I dislike the term conspiratorial since it’s so loaded. That said, this is a topic from which much tears and ink have spilled forth into the world. On one hand, a good candidate for harvesting can give many lives. On the other, what is death anyways? According to what criteria? You are very much alive in order to donate. Brain death you say? How do we measure a consciousness? Do we even know what it is? When does the “soul” leave and a person becomes a nonbeing? In hospitals I’ve been at a nurse can declare you dead if there are two nurses and they listen to your heart for a minute. I think organ donation is a great good. I don’t think it should be a decision taken lightly or, worse yet, taken in order to stave off any appearances of appearing conspiratorial.
dsr_ 2y ago
It crossed my mind, because it is strongly suspected that China does that to low-level political prisoners and members of despised minority groups. 2018: https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5250 2019: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harvesting-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harve...
- Natsu 2y ago
  Yeah, it also crossed my mind.
- darby_eight 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - nickloewen 2y ago
    This looks like it’s a story about some Israeli individuals being arrested for organ trafficking, and not at all a story about prisoners in Israel having their organs harvested.
    - darby_eight 2y ago
      Sure, but I'd be absolutely flabbergasted if they didn't come from kidnapped Palestinians.
- woooooo 2y ago
  It's confirmed that, if you're executed by the state for treason there, you become an organ donor as part of that deal. Waste not and all that. The speculative part is where people start making organs the main point of the whole thing, it has a great ick factor if you're doing nationalist flamewars.
  - more_corn 2y ago
    “Deal” implies consent. But it’s also a dangerous financial incentive. Oh innocent? Humm, I can make 10k from his organs if that evidence gets lost.
darby_eight 2y ago
> Black market organ harvesting of live prisoners didn't even cross my mind when reading this headline. It's not that crazy: https://www.westernmassnews.com/2023/05/11/getting-answers-bill-proposes-shorter-prison-sentences-organ-bone-marrow-donations/ https://www.westernmassnews.com/2023/05/11/getting-answers-b...
more_corn 2y ago
Words have meaning and meaning is important.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  Yes, and none of the words in this title mean "illegally harvesting organs of live prisoners and selling them on the black market".
idiotsecant 2y ago
It definitely is what I thought of and the headline is pretty clearly deceptively cultivating this response.
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
alwa 2y ago
Maybe something along the lines of “When Alabama prisoners die, autopsies conducted without consulting families.” Or “When inmates die, Alabama donates their organs for research. Some families object.” The idea being to preserve the substance of the concern—that families are being deprived of their legitimate say in the autopsy—without suggesting it’s more than it is. “Prisoners’ organs vanish” suggests mystery, insinuates conspiracy, and suggests that the prisoners may be alive—none of which is borne out by the substance of the article. Prisons exist to control people’s bodies, and I suspect this might be part of why, decade after decade, lurid allegations pop up about prisons (and hospitals, and orphanages, and asylums) violating prisoner’s bodily integrity while they’re institutionalized. Whether or not you put stock in the allegations, media outlets have for decades kept the story of “organ harvesting” from prisoners for transplant and for profit (and for the Bodies exhibition) circulating in the public imagination (e.g. [0], [1], [2]) The article’s allegations are about an ethical problem, but a subtle one to do with consent and postmortem bodily integrity—nobody’s suggesting that Alabama is doing anything macabre to prisoners’ bodies beyond what routinely happens in autopsies. This is a “we should fix this policy default” problem, not a “body snatcher vanishes organs” problem. [0] https://www.jstor.org/stable/41639005 https://www.jstor.org/stable/41639005 [1] https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/unfounded-claims-organ-harvesting-reignite-embers-decades-old-hospital-scandal-and https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/unfounded-claims-organ-ha... [2] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/06/china-un-human-rights-experts-alarmed-organ-harvesting-allegations https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2021/06/china-un-hum...
- ziddoap 2y ago
  All of your proposed headlines leave out a substantive component of the article: the blame is being shifted around and families are unable to find out who can be held accountable. In fact, I think this is the main thrust of the whole article! Unethical things are happening, and all of the agencies/bodies responsible are pointing fingers at another agency/body. >“Prisoners’ organs vanish” suggests mystery, insinuates conspiracy, and suggests that the prisoners may be alive I have no idea how the word vanish implies the prisoners were still alive. I'm baffled and that a few people have said the same. >nobody’s suggesting that Alabama is doing anything macabre to prisoners’ bodies beyond what routinely happens in autopsies. Indeed! And I don't believe the title implies otherwise. Unless the word "vanish" has evolved to somehow imply harvesting of live organs since I last read the definition. Admittedly, enough people are saying it that I'm starting to think I'm the weird one for not assuming the word vanish implies harvesting organs out of live prisoners.

sdwr 2y ago

> The title seems to willfully invoke the far more sinister “organ-harvesting” trope That's exactly what I thought this was about until halfway through the article - for-profit prisons expanding in another direction

sangnoir 2y ago

> The title seems to willfully invoke the far more sinister “organ-harvesting” trope that’s alarmingly a live issue in other carceral systems to this day What's the functional difference between the two to the bereaved? I don't think finding out they waited until after the autopsy to steal the organs is comforting. I would feel much better about the harvested organs of a loved one being transplanted to save a life vs being placed on a jar for medical students, I suspect most voluntary donors prefer their organs be used for transplants rather than medical training. So to me, what Alabama is doing is fat more sinister.

ceejayoz 2y ago
The concern is that a system that can use prisoners’ organs for transplants will want to do so more frequently, for profit. A motive for capital sentences. Biological waste that was going to be disposed of isn’t as scary.
- sangnoir 2y ago
  > Biological waste that was going to be disposed of isn’t as scary. Why is this excuse fine for one practice and not the other?
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    For the same reason taking parts out of my car is less concerning when it’s in the junkyard instead of my driveway.
    - sangnoir 2y ago
      Wait: are you talking aboubt harvesting organs (from the dead) for transplanting vs teaching medical students, or harvesting them from cadavers vs living people? We may be having different conversations here.