5 ms·

Adjacent work from Fields & Levin 2021 on the thermodynamics of cellular process, arguing that due to the information processing demands and classical thermo mi

Adjacent work from Fields & Levin 2021 on the thermodynamics of cellular process, arguing that due to the information processing demands and classical thermo minimal power requirements per operation for loose estimates of protein control, aggregate cellular metabolism power requirements are off by 10-15 orders of magnitude of available. They then conclude that cellular processes are using quantum coherent processes for major work internally and externally (p17). https://chrisfieldsresearch.com/quantum-cells-pre.pdf https://chrisfieldsresearch.com/quantum-cells-pre.pdf

delichon 2y ago
So perhaps like consciousness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6G1D2UQ3gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6G1D2UQ3gg
- darby_eight 2y ago
  I smell Penrose bullshit in the air Of course the brain uses quantum mechanics, it exists in the real world. What has yet to be demonstrated is any link to consciousness.
  - delichon 2y ago
    The link addresses your point.
    - darby_eight 2y ago
      I am not watching a video
      - bandrami 2y ago
        A video is always a red flag for me. If you can't make the argument in text that's a sign of something.
        cosmojg 2y ago
        Ironically, the video is a skeptic's attempt at a balanced review of a published paper, and the paper, which makes its argument in text, is way more bullshit than the video's verbal discussion of it.
      - cosmojg 2y ago
        If you like physics and you haven't watched Sabine, you're missing out. She discusses recently published research in an entertaining and accessible manner while also doing a good job of touching on more advanced aspects pertinent to the topic at hand. She's great at covering the skeptic's perspective (she usually takes that perspective herself) and playing Devil's advocate, especially when it comes to anything adjacent to her life's work in particle physics.
    - tsimionescu 2y ago
      Sabine complains about the exact same point - that even if that paper turns out to be true, there is no real link to consciousness.
spacetimeuser5 2y ago
If Levin wouldn't produce so much fluff on pseudoscientific concepts like "selves" and "computational psychiatry", he would have had the mice regenerate better and already proceed to humans, like Sinclair. How would quantum theory explain the thermodynamics of increased mental clarity reported by humans on 3-5 day of fasting induced ketosis? Or multiple biocomputational benefits of mTOR inhibition (by e.g. rapamycin for longevity purposes), reduced rate of metabolism? Extrapolating to modern mechanotech, this would be similar to an airplane flying faster and better upon regular reduction of fuel to it. Imagine a computer running more loads and faster upon regular reduction of AC power to it. Thus linear application of thermodynamics seems rather ridiculous and quantum theory may not save, because it disintegrates beyond the Plank's scale.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  Biology is not a simple linear physical equation. We have buffers. There's a lot of balancing mechanisms inside and altering your food supply can change the state your body operates in. Or if I may try this naive comparison, when I drive my car and use brakes, I slow down up until a point the engine starts to reaccelerate. The ECU adapts to reallocate more energy because going too slow would "kill" the engine. For a computer, fasting would be like reaching memory pressure so high, your OS garbage collects/flush caches and then programs suddenly runs better. ps: not that I like all of Levin's work, I do admit that his tendency to abstract into grand ideas is not helping, but I think the morphogenesis/gap-junctions part of his work is still very interesting and straightforward.
  - spacetimeuser5 2y ago
    Yes, biology is not as simple. With mTOR inhibition fasting is not a full story. mTOR is a sensor of food (amino acids) and a master regulator of growth signals. mTOR is inhibited naturally by fasting and artificially by drugs like rapamycin. And rapamycin is currently a winner in life/health extension across species (Matt Kaerbelin, Rich Miller from theDrive podcast). So with rapamycin inhibiting mTOR (or other fasting mimetic drugs) it's enough to only _send_a_signal_ of low energy/food to the biosystem to obtain gains in health and reverse biological time. So your analogy fits best here, as you are only using signals. While with fasting it is a reduction of actual food/fuel. Garbage collection can be comparable to fasting-induced autophagy, but in fasting it is also an absence of growth signals like IGF-1 that provides gains in health function (though Greg Fahy research on thymus regeneration in humans with a mix including a growth hormone may contradict this). The majority of Levin's work in developmental biology done in embryos, which are naturally a highly flexible tissue and naturally express high levels of Yamanaka genes, which are now used for epigenetic reprogramming (OSK). Growing eyes on the tadpole's tail is cool, but I want to grow a tooth for myself now.

delichon 2y ago

So perhaps like consciousness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6G1D2UQ3gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6G1D2UQ3gg

darby_eight 2y ago
I smell Penrose bullshit in the air Of course the brain uses quantum mechanics, it exists in the real world. What has yet to be demonstrated is any link to consciousness.
- delichon 2y ago
  The link addresses your point.
  - darby_eight 2y ago
    I am not watching a video
    - bandrami 2y ago
      A video is always a red flag for me. If you can't make the argument in text that's a sign of something.
      - cosmojg 2y ago
        Ironically, the video is a skeptic's attempt at a balanced review of a published paper, and the paper, which makes its argument in text, is way more bullshit than the video's verbal discussion of it.
    - cosmojg 2y ago
      If you like physics and you haven't watched Sabine, you're missing out. She discusses recently published research in an entertaining and accessible manner while also doing a good job of touching on more advanced aspects pertinent to the topic at hand. She's great at covering the skeptic's perspective (she usually takes that perspective herself) and playing Devil's advocate, especially when it comes to anything adjacent to her life's work in particle physics.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    Sabine complains about the exact same point - that even if that paper turns out to be true, there is no real link to consciousness.

spacetimeuser5 2y ago

If Levin wouldn't produce so much fluff on pseudoscientific concepts like "selves" and "computational psychiatry", he would have had the mice regenerate better and already proceed to humans, like Sinclair. How would quantum theory explain the thermodynamics of increased mental clarity reported by humans on 3-5 day of fasting induced ketosis? Or multiple biocomputational benefits of mTOR inhibition (by e.g. rapamycin for longevity purposes), reduced rate of metabolism? Extrapolating to modern mechanotech, this would be similar to an airplane flying faster and better upon regular reduction of fuel to it. Imagine a computer running more loads and faster upon regular reduction of AC power to it. Thus linear application of thermodynamics seems rather ridiculous and quantum theory may not save, because it disintegrates beyond the Plank's scale.

agumonkey 2y ago
Biology is not a simple linear physical equation. We have buffers. There's a lot of balancing mechanisms inside and altering your food supply can change the state your body operates in. Or if I may try this naive comparison, when I drive my car and use brakes, I slow down up until a point the engine starts to reaccelerate. The ECU adapts to reallocate more energy because going too slow would "kill" the engine. For a computer, fasting would be like reaching memory pressure so high, your OS garbage collects/flush caches and then programs suddenly runs better. ps: not that I like all of Levin's work, I do admit that his tendency to abstract into grand ideas is not helping, but I think the morphogenesis/gap-junctions part of his work is still very interesting and straightforward.
- spacetimeuser5 2y ago
  Yes, biology is not as simple. With mTOR inhibition fasting is not a full story. mTOR is a sensor of food (amino acids) and a master regulator of growth signals. mTOR is inhibited naturally by fasting and artificially by drugs like rapamycin. And rapamycin is currently a winner in life/health extension across species (Matt Kaerbelin, Rich Miller from theDrive podcast). So with rapamycin inhibiting mTOR (or other fasting mimetic drugs) it's enough to only _send_a_signal_ of low energy/food to the biosystem to obtain gains in health and reverse biological time. So your analogy fits best here, as you are only using signals. While with fasting it is a reduction of actual food/fuel. Garbage collection can be comparable to fasting-induced autophagy, but in fasting it is also an absence of growth signals like IGF-1 that provides gains in health function (though Greg Fahy research on thymus regeneration in humans with a mix including a growth hormone may contradict this). The majority of Levin's work in developmental biology done in embryos, which are naturally a highly flexible tissue and naturally express high levels of Yamanaka genes, which are now used for epigenetic reprogramming (OSK). Growing eyes on the tadpole's tail is cool, but I want to grow a tooth for myself now.